Meanwhile, actual medical professionals: https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/whats-wrong-criminalizing-gender-affirming-care-transgender-adolescents/2023-06
These laws are poor public policy, as they create a significant conflict between physicians’ adherence to the law and adherence to their professional code of ethics and civil law tort duty not to commit medical malpractice. The traditional standard of care with regard to medical malpractice requires that “medical care for a given patient and health care provider is the quality of care that would be provided to any patient in a similar clinical situation, by the average provider in a similar location.”30 In some specific cases, adolescent GAC treatment, including surgery, may be necessary in order for a physician to practice in line with the legal standard of care (thus avoiding malpractice) and also to satisfy their professional ethical duty to offer safe and effective medical care that promotes the patient’s well-being.31
As Kraschel et al explain: “these statutes would transform their [physicians’] fiduciary duty into a criminal act.”10 Similarly, Lepore et al argue that the laws are untenable, as they “require that health care workers act against current evidence-based guidelines” such that they are legally mandated to violate their duty to “do no harm.”32 The same tension between professional and legal obligations is observed in new abortion laws being enforced post-Roe v Wade, wherein the professional ethical duties of physicians are put in direct conflict with criminal law, forcing physicians to choose between upholding their ethical duties or violating the law.33 Hence, these new laws prohibiting GAC treatment for minors (including gender-affirming surgery) center on the government’s unwillingness to let the medical profession self-regulate—via oversight from state medical boards—or allow civil tort law to regulate physician practice as it does in most other cases.
Criminalizing gender affirming care for minors, including surgery, is both outside the mainstream opinion of medical professionals, as well as extremely wrong from a moral and ethical standpoint. Those in the thread trying to argue that Biden is adopting a “moderate” position with this couldn’t be further from the truth. His stance is harmful and extreme.
this thread has such a different vibe on hexbear than on lemmy. im declaring hunting season on transphobes, folks
The draft guidelines would have lowered the age minimums to 14 for hormonal treatments, 15 for mastectomies, 16 for breast augmentation or facial surgeries, and 17 for genital surgeries or hysterectomies. The final guidelines, released in 2022, removed the age-based recommendations altogether.
The final guidelines, released in 2022, removed the age-based recommendations altogether.
The final guidelines, released in 2022, removed the age-based recommendations altogether.
Makes sense, a 6 year old won’t have boobs to mastectomy and any adult trying to get a 6 year old a breast enhancement needs to be [redacted], pretty much all of medical science advocates against surgeries of this nature before a body is fully grown unless there something really REALLY serious to modify the risk assessment so having some legislative ban is just fucking ridiculous, facial surgeries are given to literal babies with cleft pallets, and puberty blockers aren’t the same thing as E or T.
A two-page explainer on gender-affirming care that is frequently cited by federal officials stated that gender-affirming surgeries were “typically used in adulthood or case-by-case in adolescence,” leaving the door open to surgery for minors in some instances.
No shit, its all going to be case by fucking case. Transgender people aren’t a fucking monolith, there won’t be a one size fits all treatment that works for every transgender person. That’s the whole fucking point of a person going to seek medical professionals in the first place, to figure their shit out with the professionals whose whole job is to have a good idea what can/needs to be done.
That’s the whole problem of any type of legislation making a barrier between a patient and the whole of a nations medical system. You either make the rule because you’re a bigot politican, or you make the rule because you’re an ignorant politician. There is no third option
Do not trust anything the New York Times writes about trans people. Please go verify everything from other sources.
Do not trust anything the New York Times writes
about trans people.Please go verify everything from other sources.News isn’t a source, it’s a retelling of the source information (though of course they can make up what they like anyway)
They have a journalistic responsibility to include relevant information and seek comment from relevant groups. The article doesn’t include any comment from healthcare professionals or advocacy groups, nor does it contain any information about potential consequences of the surgeries being banned. It fails to actually inform the public on the issue at hand, and the auxiliary information that is brought up just puts the medical procedure into question by positing it as controversial (yeah, controversial because of transphobes) and questionable. Presenting only a limited section of the issue, but making it seem like it encompasses its entirety, makes this article functionally the same as transphobic propaganda.
I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. Are you being pedantic?
You’re right honestly. I’m sorry. I’m tired and being unintentionally annoying, so I should just delete my comments. My point is technically true, but it was just unnecessary to bring up.
honestly, respectable. good job
minors do not get surgery wtf people.
I know someone who got it at 17. That said, the only reason it happened was because of connections. Usually, even if it gets approved at 16, you basically have to get in line, and that will take 2-3 years before you can actually get the surgery.
That’s how it was for my friend a few years ago at least.
Has gender affirming surgery for minors ever been a thing? Counseling and medication, sure, but I’ve never heard of someone advocating for surgery. Seems like a conservative dog whistle.
I’ve heard people (admittedly only online) advocating for surgery for trans minors, the main argument being that puberty has such a big impact that an earlier surgery often means a much more effective result.
(This is just from memory, I might be getting stuff wrong)
That’s what puberty blockers are for, I think you might be confused
It’s pretty common and it absolutely should be allowed. 99% of the cases are for cis children.
That’s the reality. Republicans want to ban it only for trans kids even though they allow and encourage it for cis kids. Gender affirming surgeries for cis kids include gynecomastia.
I wasn’t aware of that, thanks for sharing
The US really seems to be enjoying killing children
Children Teenagers Adults Elders Black Hispanic Latinos Muslims Jews Russians *nistan people Iraqis Mexicans Iranians Homeless Refugees Addicts Poor people Disabled people And so on
Pregnant people too!
I am out of the loop honestly, but i was sure that surgery was not an option until after puberty due to biological reasons. Am I wrong?
Also, for context, media outlets (and that one TX doc) have been including puberty blocking implants as “surgery”. It’s incredibly dishonest.
Basically, some trans people want to have bottom surgery before going to college. And wrt top surgery, some trans masc teens want access to the same medical options as cis male teens.
But the New York Terfs don’t like that
Not sure about biological reasons. Its possible I spose but without more medical knowledge. In not sure how removing / changing organs as they grow developmentally effects the final outcome.
The argument has always been about the maturity of the candidate. And the idea that surgery is not practically reversible. Vs the mental harm of growing up in a body that dose not match your perceived gender.
But I have to wonder. As In the UK and I am sure the US hormone blockers are also being attacked with often questionable medical evidence as to the harm the may do when used on developing teenagers.
Given In the UK it is definatly not legal for anyone under the age of consent to have gender reasignment surgery. The current attacks seem to be aimed at making it impossible for that surgery to achive its best success once it is legal.
will nothing sate this man’s lust for child blood
Another boneheaded triangulation move from Biden. Stop giving ground to the enemy. All they do is use your compromise as a starting point to force further compromise. Give them nothing.
hes not giving ground to the enemy.
he is a conservative, he IS the enemy.
No Republican had to give anything up to achieve this, this is literally just the Democrats doing exactly what they want to do because they want to do it.
I wish they’d just be honest about the triangulation. “due to the political climate, we will not be following the best practices as recommended by the relevant experts”
I fear this is the start of the Democrats becoming like UK’s labour. I won’t be surprised if Levine is forced out of her position before the election, based on how the New York Terfs are centering her in this story
Only got the auto TLDR to go on but it sounds like he is challenging them to reinstate medication. What is he compramising?
The right: “Trans people shouldn’t exist, people who allow boys to dress as girls and use different pronouns are groomers and should be shot. The far left wants to mutilate your children and put them on hormone drugs.”
Moderates: “Adults can do what they want, and kids should be loved and supported even if they want to present as a different gender. Surgeries and drugs are a bridge too far, and should wait until the child is of age.”
Leftists on Lemmy: “If you don’t support transgender surgeries and drugs for kids, you’re the enemy”
Do you really think that people who hold the moderate position are the enemy?
This kind of thinking is exactly why we have such a festering fascism problem in western civilization right now.
My enemy is the far right fascists, and I want to be able to tell independent voters that they’re wrong about the left, that the left does NOT want to give their kids permanent surgeries and life altering drugs until they are adults that can make those decisions.
I want to be able to tell them that the trans issue is being used to divide us and get people to vote against their economic interests.
Maybe let’s just stay focused about who the enemy really is, so that when the dust settles, more reasonable people can have an adult discussion about where the line is on these sorts of issues. I don’t think this is a settled issue, even within “the left”.
The left: Man… I’m never gonna fully get over having gone through puberty for the gender that I feel doesn’t represent me. I wanted to take my own life at times and I had no support. I see that people who started transitioning younger have better results passing and are generally safer for it. I wish we could talk about this openly.
The medical community: It should be alright to delay puberty for trans kids on the same ground we delay puberty for cis kids if there’s a developmental problem, I guess. I don’t think we’ll be providing any life altering surgeries until adulthood however except in maybe extreme circumstances. We’ll see if there’s a suicide risk maybe.
The right: THE LEFT R GONNA CHOP OFF MY SONS DICK AND MY DAUGHTERS TITS THE MOMENT NEXT PRIDE MONTH ROLLS AROUND, I HAVE SEEN IT WRIT IN THE SKY, I HAVE SEEN IT SPELT UPON THE WIND, THERE WILL BE HORMONE GAS ATTACKS, THERE WILL BE ROVING GENDER-SWAPPER MACHINES, MY LINE WILL END IN DEGENERACY
The leadership: This is factually correct. Let us begin the Great Work. Alexa play Yhorm the Giant Dark Souls III OST by Yuka Kitamura.
Centrists: I am just not sure where the line is, y’know?
The moderate position between medical science and ideology is still nonsense.
Puberty is life altering. My body was permanently changed by testosterone in ways that I can never fix and now I have to live the rest of my life with those scars.
Trust doctors.
The right: I know better than doctors, and need to make medical decisions for the unwashed masses
Moderates: I know better than doctors, and need to make medical decisions for the unwashed masses
Leftists on Lemmy: bro wtf
life altering drugs
Puberty blockers are not life altering drugs and have been used on cis children for decades with no issues being raised about it, let alone of this scale. Any stance other than this, one based in actual reality, is caving to right wing framing of the issue.
permanent surgeries
So exceedingly rare among trans children that it’s not worth talking about. Trans children rarely get access to puberty blockers, let alone surgeries.
until they are adults that can make those decisions
This is also caving to right wing rhetoric on the issue. Trans children are not walking into gender clinics and saying “One gender-affirming surgery, please :)”, this process typically involves multiple doctors, usually a therapist of some kind, and obviously the kid’s parent(s)/guardian(s). Just like the abortion issue, it should stay that way and be free of state intervention, because to say otherwise would be to contradict the overwhelming majority of medical evidence from the past several decades that indicate that transition leads to the best outcomes for trans people.
I want to be able to tell them that the trans issue is being used to divide us and get people to vote against their economic interests.
As Outdoor_Catgirl said, this issue is not a fucking distraction. To be free from discrimination and the very real threat of violence that often results murder should ostensibly be an issue liberals would care about. But even with the most selfish framing, trans issues are directly related to the lack of adequate and affordable healthcare that plagues this country even after it socially murdered over a million people with the lack of COVID response. So, trans issues should not be seen as a “distraction” or a “culture war”, because increasing discrimination and stochastic violence against a vulnerable minority should be issues that even liberals care about.
No, fuck off and die. If you’re trans, you should be able to get the hormones you want instead of having your body warped and mutated by the incorrect puberty. The only trans people who disagree with this are pickmes who think that by groveling and sucking up to cis people they might be less transphobic(it won’t work, you will never be "one of the good ones.) You know what’s a life altering change to your body? Fucking cis puberty. Everyone who thinks that trans kids who realize their actual gender and come out before 18 should be unable to transition is bigoted scum. Transphobes should be forcibly dosed with estrogen/testosterone so that they are made to experience even a tiny fraction of the suffering and dysphoria that is being trans.
“The trans issue is being used to divide us and distract from economy” eat shit and die. The right to medical care, to be free from discrimination, to not get fucking murdered like Brianna Ghey and Nex Benedict or god knows how many others is not a distraction. It is not culture war.
Iirc didn’t next kill themselves after starting and losing the fight in the bathroom?
Maybe there will be a time when most voters agree with surgeries and drugs for children, but I don’t think we’re there yet, and I don’t think your “fuck off and die” attitude is going to convince very many people to be accepting of trans people.
You’re providing a perfect example of the kind of attitude that will get fascists elected. You’re replying to someone who largely supports trans people and issues, but you’re foaming at the mouth over arguments that I didn’t advance, implying that I think it’s OK to murder trans people.
Consider that the idea of puberty being something that moderates are “inflicting” on trans kids is a fairly radical view and you might need to do more than tell people to “fuck off and die” if you want support for your cause.
While an aggressive attitude won’t change the mind of bigots, a polite and respectful response to someone who advocates for forcing kids to go through the wrong puberty is going to be especially difficult for people with personal trauma for it, and it’s unreasonable to expect it of them.
I think it’s a reasonable reaction to throw polite discourse out when people use “moderate” as a cover for their bigotry. This is like when “moderate” person said that segregation of black people was reasonable when people were fighting for their civil rights, and that since the moderates weren’t pro-slavery so they were the good guys. No, you’re not the good guys, you’re just not as bad as the super evil guys. Congrats.
Now I won’t tell you to “fuck off and die”, but I will tell you to fuck off. If you were someone I personally knew, I would have put in the effort to be polite and try to educate you or whatever, but since we don’t know each other it’s unlikely to land.
I say it as someone who used to think like you.
The difference between MLKs views about moderates in the civil rights movement and not supporting surgeries and drugs for children is that white people were (and arguably still are) actively oppressing black people.
Puberty is not something that is “inflicted” on anyone. It just happens, it’s part of life. It’s disingenuous to assert that puberty is an affliction , or that someone is afflicting it on someone else. Unless you’re also arguing that birth is an affliction?
Puberty is not something that is “inflicted” on anyone.
It is when we have the safe medication to make it avoidable for someone who would be harmed by it, but “”“moderates”“” are tying themselves into knots trying to find ways to subvert the medical consensus because the existence of trans children makes them uncomfortable or whatever fucking justification they tell themselves.
Oh, so trans people are responsible for transphobia now. We should just shut up and “keep it in the bedroom, I don’t want to see that kind of stuff on public” and maybe the “largely supportive” cissoids will give us a crumb of rights. Got it.
I empathize with you and understand that you’ve probably had some traumatic experiences. But no, I did not say anything like what you’re asserting, and I’m not sure how you could have read that from my response.
I don’t think your “fuck off and die” attitude is going to convince very many people to be accepting of trans people.
Do you think maybe that attitude is the result of being one of the primary political scapegoats for fascists for several years now, while liberals have largely sat on their hands and done nothing while hundreds and hundreds of discriminatory bills flow through state legislatures every single year? While liberals like you gradually adopt reactionary framing (the “dangers” of puberty blockers and the alleged commonality of trans surgeries for children) on the issue, ceding ever more ground to their rhetoric?
You’re providing a perfect example of the kind of attitude that will get fascists elected.
And then victim blaming as the cherry on top. Very cool.
Do you really think that people who hold the moderate position are the enemy?
White liberals are the most destructive thing, gotcha
Yes. 😊
Good job keeping the dialogue going mods
You don’t get to be overtly bigoted toward trans people here, sorry! 😭
Is that sarcasm? The mods have removed all the povs they presumably disagree with.
good, fuck bigots and fuck their crybaby supporters too
Yes
hope you die mad about it, worm
hexbear doing a tyrannical stalinist purge
Im not mad, i rejoyce seeing the low level of liberals. Roll in the mud of censorship all you want, you only make yourself weaker as a political actor
not a liberal, don’t care about anything you have to say
your input on this matter has no value and neither do you
Thats very mature and non-liberal. Thanks for the favor
I think that’s totally reasonable. They support puberty suppressants and any other non-surgical treatments. But surgery comes with a lot of risk. And it’s easy to make the argument that minors are legally seen as unable to make certain life altering decisions.
And additionally, even if this is 100% a political move, I think it’s more important to protect non-medical treatments AND adult surgery if this has to go.
Are non-surgical treatments still permanent? Like if you grow up using hormones or whatever and you end up with a different body later, it might be a bit similar to surgery.
As someone who doesn’t know shit, I find permanent stuff scary. I wear contact lenses because I can’t commit to buy a pair of glasses and I’m afraid to regret it.
But I heard that the rate of people regretting transition surgery or whatever it’s called, is pretty low. I don’t know if it’s true and if it’s only for adults, but I really hope it is true.
If so, maybe it’s fine that minors have the surgeries. I would think that there is a serious process with professionals and shit and they make sure, as best they can, than the person is not going to regret later.
How is it related to wearing glasses? And on the contrary, shouldn’t it be the other way - using glasses, which is easily removable vs contact lenses, which isn’t as much?
I just mean that I personally have difficulties in making decision that I might regret.
So I have a bit of a hard time imagining what people who want surgery must feel.
But if the regrets rate are low I tend to think that maybe it’s fine that they have the surgery.
This is unrelated to the important point but about the glasses - you can buy cheap ~$15-20USD glasses online and have them shipped, just to try a pair, then buy something nicer if you like them.
I’m totally fine with that as well. I’ve also heard that surgery requires a lot of verification and validation from psychologists. Medical professionals don’t just sign you up for life-altering procedures. In fact, if I as personally deciding, I’d say let medical professionals do their job.
Are there actually people who don’t oppose this??
Generally no. It’s just a straw man the right wing trans phones have cooked up to rage-bait voters. Just like post-birth abortion.
If someone was born with a chromosomal defect, or something that has left them in a state of not being quite a man, or not quite a woman, I think they should be allowed to elect to be whatever sex they want to present as. These are the people who need these kinds of protections.
If Gender doesn’t equal Sex, then we shouldn’t be using surgery to change people’s sex. You can be whatever gender you want in the body you’ve got; and society should just simply learn to deal with it. There should not be a crowd of people trying to convince others that they need to change their body to “fit” the gender they want to be.
Let’s stop conflating Gender with Sex, and using these pseudo-scientific quacks to change people’s bodies on a whim. That goes for cosmetic surgery too, in my honest opinion.
Nobody is trying to convince trans people they need surgery, it just so happens that it’s an effective treatment for dysphoria as has been proven in study after study after study.
It’s a choice between the patient and their doctors. Perhaps it’s societal, perhaps not. Either way your magical idealism world doesn’t actually exist in real life so it should continue to be a practice because it works
Signed, A trans woman who will have some but but all surgical treatments.
Seriously. Anyone thinking kids should be allowed to cut off or add body parts on a whim is an absolute moron. Kids’ brains are not even close to fully formed. If you’re an adult and you want to sew extra fingers on or whatever, then go for it, but kids should not be making those kinds of choices. This shouldn’t even be remotely controversial.
That’s because it’s not controversial and that’s why it’s so weird we’re focused on it.
Minors are in the vast majority of times given puberty blockers at most which is a reversible process.
The focus on this non-issue is to generate controversy and impact hormonal care of minors and all care for adult trans people and everyone keeps falling for it
No one has any clue what you are talking about.
The mods nuked all opposing viewpoints
We nuke bigotry, we are not willing to make this place unwelcoming for people so right wingers feel more comfy expressing their opinions.
I really fucking hate that anytime the Dems are in trouble, their default response is to make overtures to the center right. There are many, many more eligible voters who aren’t just waiting for an excuse to vote for Trump like the “undecided” neocons. Fucking try giving the urban core something to vote for. Maybe try joining the 21st century and reconnecting with the left. Quit trying to save Republicans from themselves. It won’t work and they’re not worth it.
They weren’t even in trouble here! It’s just the NYT spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt about one of the only openly trans US officials.
Not that it even matters, since SCOTUS gets the final say in all administrative matters now.
