Adapted I think is a better term than evolved. Most people would be lactose intolerant if they stopped drinking milk after being weened off of breast milk.
Eh I feel like that is semantics. If we are specific and refer to how individuals adapt to be lactose tolerant, you could still say “humans evolved to drink milk” instead in reference to how the population of humans that could adapt and become lactose tolerant grew in relation to humans that couldn’t.
Don’t appeal to evolution, evolution is weird. Evolution just does whatever survival says. If we can survive drinking milk, evolution is cool with it. But evolution is weird, evolution will be all like “You like cows milk huh? That’s cool, have you considered shrinking down and losing your brain and most internal organs to become a nipple latching milk parasyte? No? Ok, I’ll ask again later.”
Well, yes, since we already do that. And human milk is at least from our species.
I personally think that would be very weird, but less weird than drinking the breast milk of other species.
I’ll refer you to another response from this wonderfully lively thread:
"“What do you like to drink?”
“Milk.”
“What’s that?”
“This breast juice from other animals. It’s super healthy for the percentage of our population that can digest it.”
“Oh…Why from other animals?”
“Well, we’re not going to drink human breast milk, that would be gross. I mean, we give it to babies. Cow and goat lactation, though, that’s for grown-ups.”"
Fair enough. Like the other commenter said in response, it’s good to remember that weird doesn’t mean bad, but you’re not wrong, it is pretty weird lol. The world is a goofy place :)
Agreed, there are tons of weird and goofy things everywhere. They don’t bother me, but I notice and appreciate them.
Drinking milk from other species is just one of the most common weird ones and one that I don’t think we examine fundamentally often enough haha. Plus I always think it’s funny.
I always think of that. Tom Green skit where he drank milk straight from the udder of a cow and the ostensible joke is like look how crazy this guy is that he’s willing to drink milk straight from the cow!
But that’s basically what everybody is doing, in my head anyway whenever I see someone drinking milk. It’s fun up there, in my head.
Not dissing your argument at all, but my first thought was of babies eating little pieces of human flesh and it made me giggle. Well now that I wrote I down it just sounds freaky, but in my head it sounded silly ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You’re trying to make it seem like drinking milk is weird because it comes from an animal other than humans. But nearly all the food anyone eats comes from something that’s not a human.
You’re also ignoring one of the big reasons we don’t drink human milk for longer - most human mothers stop producing milk after a certain length of time, whereas cows and goats and the like produce it more regularly, for longer periods of time.
You only think they don’t because we force-impregnate the eugenics cows to be pregnant and lactating all the time. When they have their babies, the baby is taken away immediately and the cow is force-impregnated again 6 weeks later. After a few years, the cow is killed and becomes deli meat.
That is a strange horror show you are cheerleading for as “normal”.
Also, stop pretending I’m saying things I’m not. It didn’t work for the others and it won’t work for you.
If we think about this way, yes it is indeed pretty weird but it has really great nutrients which are crucial for children to grow in a healthy way (in moderation just like with any other food, fruit, vegetable).
I think milk has vitamins and nutrients as well, vitamins and nutrients that can be easily supplemented by other dietary sources.
It’s much more the fact that it’s just day to day normal to drink breast milk from other animals.
“What do you like to drink?”
“Milk.”
“What’s that?”
“This breast juice from other animals. It’s super healthy for the percentage of our population that can digest it.”
“Oh…Why from other animals?”
“Well, we’re not going to drink human breast milk, that would be gross. I mean, we give it to babies. Cow and goat lactation, though, that’s for grown-ups.”
I don’t think “it’s weird therefore bad” is a good argument. If you’re gonna argue for veganism (which I don’t have a problem work doing!) I think there are way, way better reasons.
“it’s weird and should be more stigmatized” that seems to be making a moral claim right? I guess you never explicitly said that it’s because it’s weird that it should be stigmatized, but it certainly seemed to be structured like that.
And ah maybe I misunderstood, what you were saying just sounds like how a lot of ppl talk about it on the vegan forums I used to regular, lmao.
I’m not sure what triggers a moral defense there, except for the traditional context of the word “stigma”, maybe? Yeah, might have taken it one assumption too far.
I guess you can make a moral argument against drinking milk because of factory farming infrastructure, but even with factory farming I think anyone would find it easier to argue against the mass slaughter in horrific conditions before the milk charge would make waves.
Even though drinking xeno-boob-juice is super weird.
So you used to be a vegan? Or you just crashed their forums?
Yeah I was talking about milks too. Probably it’s relatively easy to supplement milk with other sources but are those choice economically viable? Protein powders are a bit expensive + as an average joe, payin 3x+ more for plant based milk products are bit too much for me currently, but a 2x could convince me to opt for a plant based one. I’m not really knowledgable in this area, there must be some other options too for replacing milk in a cost effective way.
Yeast is the way to look in terms of a realistic cost effective nutritious alternative to milk that tastes and feels similar. I think anyway. Synthesized yeast proteins, acids and fats is a pretty interesting field.
We can just program yeast to incorporate a certain amount of D3, or whatever other detail of nutrition we care for, within the milk or other substance they produce.
Oh, it’s super cool. Scientists were able to persuade yeasts to produce all sorts of things in small colonies decades ago, but there are actual companies now that the technology has matured that are trying to bring yeast farms into commercial scale. And yeasts are so variable in their strains and productions that you could basically make a yeast produce any combination of protein, fats and acids that you’d like. They’re hoping to synthesize biodegradable plastics, milks, it sounds like nearly anything organic should be able to be synthesized via yeast.
What gives you the idea that eating animal meat is unintentional?
I can think of plenty of examples of one animal eating the meat of another, but only one example of a majority of a species drinking the breast milk of another species.
So yeah, drinking milk seems weirder to me than eating meat.
Because you alleged that meat is not something I was intended to eat, which doesn’t really track with the uncountable natural examples of predator and prey for all of knowable history.
Things happening have nothing to do with intentions. Your implication of milk is not intended to be consumed by humans doesn’t track with the history either. We consume milk a fuck ton in various forms over hundreds of years.
Of course it tracks - You think that breast milk produced by cows and goats for baby cows and goats specifically is intended for human consumption? No, of course not. That animal breast milk is intended for the young of that species.
Humans may continue to suckle at the teats of other animals, and it may continue to be common, and it will be weird.
That just brings back the question of how’s cow meat is intended to be eaten by you. That muscle is intended to let the cow walk and eat and reproduce. It is specifically evolved for those purposes.
I don’t think I have the time or inclination to explain the entire history of predator and prey to you, but if you type in those two p-words, you’re going to learn a whole lot about a very long history of carnivores and omnivores eating meat.
Carnivores are meat eaters and omnivores eat many things, btw.
Humans as a predator, are biologically and historically intended to eat prey, the cow. Or pig, or whatever animal.
Look it up, you can choose nearly any animal you are familiar with, and they will fit into the food chain somewhere as an iteration of predator or prey.
I dont know man. Ants are farming aphids for their sugary digestive secrets aka their shit. Bears eat Honey, which to all logic remains half digested bee-spit. Praying Mantis cut off the head off their mate after mating and eat it. Anglerfish males are not the mighty toothed beasts, but weird little parasites that nist themselves in the females and eat them from the inside until the female just lays its eggs before death.
So humans drinking other animals milk is maybe unique, but certainly not more weird than other ways of procurung nutrition, that nature invented.
Most of the useful things in milk are there because we artificially added them in. There is no real reason for this, it’s just what we have been doing for a long time
If only humans could make their own vitamin D. Oh, wait
The major natural source of vitamin D is synthesis of cholecalciferol in the lower layers of the epidermis of the skin, through a photochemical reaction of UVB light, from the sun exposure (specifically UVB radiation) or UVB lamps.
In the winter, only 10 percent of the body is exposed, and nearly 2 hours of sun exposure at noon is needed to produce a sufficient amount of vitamin D.
You can get all the vitamin D you need from just 10-30 minutes midday a few times a week.
Also, cow’s milk doesn’t naturally contain vitamin D. Vitamin D is added to cow’s milk and is even required by law in some countries (Canada and Sweden). Might as well just drink any milk alternative fortified with vitamin D.
You can get all the vitamin D you need from just 10-30 minutes midday a few times a week.
Sure, I’m not arguing against that. Just pointing out there aren’t that many sources. And there are a lot of reasons people can’t go outside whenever they want to, biggest one for me is it gets really cold during the winter. No way I’m going outside to hang out when it’s 10 degrees outside.
There aren’t? Fish right? Isn’t that what fish and fish oil is all about? I think there are plenty of dietary sources of D3 beyond breast milk, if that’s the issue.
Fish and eggs yes. But if you eat fish all the time, you’ll find you have a different issue with mercury poisoning. Sources of vitamin D are low, so some foods and drinks get fortified with vitamin d. It isnt naturally found in anything but fish, beef liver, and egg yolk.
We have absolutely zero evolutionary need for milk past infancy. It’s all culture and marketing.
Just because we do those things you mentioned doesn’t mean they’re necessary. In fact, I assure you, neither clothes nor cooking are strictly necessary for an individual’s survival. They’re convenient and comfortable, but not physiologically necessary. Obviously we’d freeze in cold climates, but there are plenty of places on earth we could survive well enough without.
We do need vitamin D to survive, but you can literally just get it directly from sunlight. The more time you spend inside, and the more thoroughly you clothe yourself, the more likely you are to need to supplement it. Simple as. You only need 30m outside 3x a week (2hrs in winter regions).
Another funny thing about milk, is that all the natural vitamin A and D is removed in processing. They literally have to re-fortify it again, so the only reason it’s billed as this “healthy” thing is because it’s basically a lab-made liquid vitamin.
Sure. Glugging down the lactation of other species intended for their babies is weird. It’s weird and should be more stigmatized.
Peak Lemmy for me is reading shit like this and being unsure if it is a joke or not
Hahaha, me too.
I do think it is super weird to drink the breast milk of other animals. At the same time, I wouldn’t say that it’s a topic I take very seriously.
Oats, goats, stoats, all of 'em
What am I supposed to wash this peanut butter down with; human milk? Disgusting!
Ew gross! Cow lactation, please!
Or as I like to call it, beef milk.
Moojuice.
Also, eggs are chicken abortions.
Coconut milk?
I think it only qualifies as “milk” based on its color. I don’t think it’s actually milk but I don’t know enough to commit to that answer.
Water? The thing adult humans evolved to drink.
A good chunk of human adults also evolved to drink milk, my dude.
Adapted I think is a better term than evolved. Most people would be lactose intolerant if they stopped drinking milk after being weened off of breast milk.
Eh I feel like that is semantics. If we are specific and refer to how individuals adapt to be lactose tolerant, you could still say “humans evolved to drink milk” instead in reference to how the population of humans that could adapt and become lactose tolerant grew in relation to humans that couldn’t.
Don’t appeal to evolution, evolution is weird. Evolution just does whatever survival says. If we can survive drinking milk, evolution is cool with it. But evolution is weird, evolution will be all like “You like cows milk huh? That’s cool, have you considered shrinking down and losing your brain and most internal organs to become a nipple latching milk parasyte? No? Ok, I’ll ask again later.”
Are you saying it’d be less weird to glug down human milk?
Well, yes, since we already do that. And human milk is at least from our species.
I personally think that would be very weird, but less weird than drinking the breast milk of other species.
I’ll refer you to another response from this wonderfully lively thread:
"“What do you like to drink?”
“Milk.”
“What’s that?”
“This breast juice from other animals. It’s super healthy for the percentage of our population that can digest it.”
“Oh…Why from other animals?”
“Well, we’re not going to drink human breast milk, that would be gross. I mean, we give it to babies. Cow and goat lactation, though, that’s for grown-ups.”"
Fair enough. Like the other commenter said in response, it’s good to remember that weird doesn’t mean bad, but you’re not wrong, it is pretty weird lol. The world is a goofy place :)
Agreed, there are tons of weird and goofy things everywhere. They don’t bother me, but I notice and appreciate them.
Drinking milk from other species is just one of the most common weird ones and one that I don’t think we examine fundamentally often enough haha. Plus I always think it’s funny.
I always think of that. Tom Green skit where he drank milk straight from the udder of a cow and the ostensible joke is like look how crazy this guy is that he’s willing to drink milk straight from the cow!
But that’s basically what everybody is doing, in my head anyway whenever I see someone drinking milk. It’s fun up there, in my head.
You could make a similar argument as to why we eat animal meat instead of human meat and it would be just as stupid.
Not dissing your argument at all, but my first thought was of babies eating little pieces of human flesh and it made me giggle. Well now that I wrote I down it just sounds freaky, but in my head it sounded silly ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I’m not sure what you’re talking about.
Go on?
You’re trying to make it seem like drinking milk is weird because it comes from an animal other than humans. But nearly all the food anyone eats comes from something that’s not a human.
You’re also ignoring one of the big reasons we don’t drink human milk for longer - most human mothers stop producing milk after a certain length of time, whereas cows and goats and the like produce it more regularly, for longer periods of time.
Cows also stop producing milk naturally.
You only think they don’t because we force-impregnate the eugenics cows to be pregnant and lactating all the time. When they have their babies, the baby is taken away immediately and the cow is force-impregnated again 6 weeks later. After a few years, the cow is killed and becomes deli meat.
That is a strange horror show you are cheerleading for as “normal”.
Also, stop pretending I’m saying things I’m not. It didn’t work for the others and it won’t work for you.
If we think about this way, yes it is indeed pretty weird but it has really great nutrients which are crucial for children to grow in a healthy way (in moderation just like with any other food, fruit, vegetable).
I think milk has vitamins and nutrients as well, vitamins and nutrients that can be easily supplemented by other dietary sources.
It’s much more the fact that it’s just day to day normal to drink breast milk from other animals.
“What do you like to drink?”
“Milk.”
“What’s that?”
“This breast juice from other animals. It’s super healthy for the percentage of our population that can digest it.”
“Oh…Why from other animals?”
“Well, we’re not going to drink human breast milk, that would be gross. I mean, we give it to babies. Cow and goat lactation, though, that’s for grown-ups.”
I don’t think “it’s weird therefore bad” is a good argument. If you’re gonna argue for veganism (which I don’t have a problem work doing!) I think there are way, way better reasons.
I agree, can you point me to whichever commenter told you it was bad?
I’m not big into veganism myself, but feel free to spread your vegan wings here if you like.
Seems as appropriate a place as any.
“it’s weird and should be more stigmatized” that seems to be making a moral claim right? I guess you never explicitly said that it’s because it’s weird that it should be stigmatized, but it certainly seemed to be structured like that.
And ah maybe I misunderstood, what you were saying just sounds like how a lot of ppl talk about it on the vegan forums I used to regular, lmao.
If the original comment was truly a sarcasm then I give a huge applause for Varyk. It’s certainly 200 IQ level.
I’m not sure what triggers a moral defense there, except for the traditional context of the word “stigma”, maybe? Yeah, might have taken it one assumption too far.
I guess you can make a moral argument against drinking milk because of factory farming infrastructure, but even with factory farming I think anyone would find it easier to argue against the mass slaughter in horrific conditions before the milk charge would make waves.
Even though drinking xeno-boob-juice is super weird.
So you used to be a vegan? Or you just crashed their forums?
Yeah I was talking about milks too. Probably it’s relatively easy to supplement milk with other sources but are those choice economically viable? Protein powders are a bit expensive + as an average joe, payin 3x+ more for plant based milk products are bit too much for me currently, but a 2x could convince me to opt for a plant based one. I’m not really knowledgable in this area, there must be some other options too for replacing milk in a cost effective way.
Supplements are cheaper than milk. If the main concern is about d3, you can buy hundreds of high dose d3 supplements for like 10 bucks.
I’m checking.
Costco, no sale, 500 iu d3, 600 gels.
CVS, 5$, 400iu d3 for 100 gels.
Supplements are pretty available.
Protein? Meat. Quinoa. Protein is easier and cheaper, but d3 is straightforward and available also.
Yeah these are good options, though I’m an europoor I believe you, but personally I’m more likely interested in a milk alternative.
Yeast is the way to look in terms of a realistic cost effective nutritious alternative to milk that tastes and feels similar. I think anyway. Synthesized yeast proteins, acids and fats is a pretty interesting field.
We can just program yeast to incorporate a certain amount of D3, or whatever other detail of nutrition we care for, within the milk or other substance they produce.
Damn yeast as a viable alternative? Now that was an unexpected one, thank you for the info!
Oh, it’s super cool. Scientists were able to persuade yeasts to produce all sorts of things in small colonies decades ago, but there are actual companies now that the technology has matured that are trying to bring yeast farms into commercial scale. And yeasts are so variable in their strains and productions that you could basically make a yeast produce any combination of protein, fats and acids that you’d like. They’re hoping to synthesize biodegradable plastics, milks, it sounds like nearly anything organic should be able to be synthesized via yeast.
Yeah, check it out, yeast farming is super cool.
More weird than eating other things not intended for you to eat like animal meats?
Weirder? Sure.
What gives you the idea that eating animal meat is unintentional?
I can think of plenty of examples of one animal eating the meat of another, but only one example of a majority of a species drinking the breast milk of another species.
So yeah, drinking milk seems weirder to me than eating meat.
Nobody born intended to be eaten by others. Why is that even a question?
Because you alleged that meat is not something I was intended to eat, which doesn’t really track with the uncountable natural examples of predator and prey for all of knowable history.
Things happening have nothing to do with intentions. Your implication of milk is not intended to be consumed by humans doesn’t track with the history either. We consume milk a fuck ton in various forms over hundreds of years.
Of course it tracks - You think that breast milk produced by cows and goats for baby cows and goats specifically is intended for human consumption? No, of course not. That animal breast milk is intended for the young of that species.
Humans may continue to suckle at the teats of other animals, and it may continue to be common, and it will be weird.
That just brings back the question of how’s cow meat is intended to be eaten by you. That muscle is intended to let the cow walk and eat and reproduce. It is specifically evolved for those purposes.
I don’t think I have the time or inclination to explain the entire history of predator and prey to you, but if you type in those two p-words, you’re going to learn a whole lot about a very long history of carnivores and omnivores eating meat.
Carnivores are meat eaters and omnivores eat many things, btw.
Humans as a predator, are biologically and historically intended to eat prey, the cow. Or pig, or whatever animal.
Look it up, you can choose nearly any animal you are familiar with, and they will fit into the food chain somewhere as an iteration of predator or prey.
You have a lot to learn, that’ll be fun for you!
I dont know man. Ants are farming aphids for their sugary digestive secrets aka their shit. Bears eat Honey, which to all logic remains half digested bee-spit. Praying Mantis cut off the head off their mate after mating and eat it. Anglerfish males are not the mighty toothed beasts, but weird little parasites that nist themselves in the females and eat them from the inside until the female just lays its eggs before death.
So humans drinking other animals milk is maybe unique, but certainly not more weird than other ways of procurung nutrition, that nature invented.
We need vitamin D3, and there aren’t that many sources you can get it from.
Most of the useful things in milk are there because we artificially added them in. There is no real reason for this, it’s just what we have been doing for a long time
If only humans could make their own vitamin D. Oh, wait
Sure you can, but there’s also winter months where you can’t really go outside.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Source
I thought less time was required.
You can get all the vitamin D you need from just 10-30 minutes midday a few times a week.
Also, cow’s milk doesn’t naturally contain vitamin D. Vitamin D is added to cow’s milk and is even required by law in some countries (Canada and Sweden). Might as well just drink any milk alternative fortified with vitamin D.
Sure, I’m not arguing against that. Just pointing out there aren’t that many sources. And there are a lot of reasons people can’t go outside whenever they want to, biggest one for me is it gets really cold during the winter. No way I’m going outside to hang out when it’s 10 degrees outside.
There aren’t? Fish right? Isn’t that what fish and fish oil is all about? I think there are plenty of dietary sources of D3 beyond breast milk, if that’s the issue.
Fish and eggs yes. But if you eat fish all the time, you’ll find you have a different issue with mercury poisoning. Sources of vitamin D are low, so some foods and drinks get fortified with vitamin d. It isnt naturally found in anything but fish, beef liver, and egg yolk.
Eat fish oil instead of fish if you’re worried about mercury.
As for d3 only being found in only a few foods? That can’t be correct.
Nope, it isn’t.
But you go on drinking milk if you like, people do lots of weird things.
Easily googled dude. It is true. Yes, we can also produce it from our skin, but lots of reasons people cant always go outside.
It was easily Googled, and you are wrong.
[](other sources. )
Mushrooms, oranges, almonds, and we aren’t even addressing the very cheap d3 supplements.
All other mammals not drinking milk past infancy: Am I a joke to you?
Literally all you need to do is touch grass a few times a week.
that’s not a good argument. Other animals doesn’t cook food or wear clothes.
we do, since both things are older than our species, so we evolved this way. We’d die without cooking and clothes.
domestic animals and drinking milk are a newer thing, but our species do this weird things all the time.
that being said, vitamin D can be foud elsewhere lol
We have absolutely zero evolutionary need for milk past infancy. It’s all culture and marketing.
Just because we do those things you mentioned doesn’t mean they’re necessary. In fact, I assure you, neither clothes nor cooking are strictly necessary for an individual’s survival. They’re convenient and comfortable, but not physiologically necessary. Obviously we’d freeze in cold climates, but there are plenty of places on earth we could survive well enough without.
We do need vitamin D to survive, but you can literally just get it directly from sunlight. The more time you spend inside, and the more thoroughly you clothe yourself, the more likely you are to need to supplement it. Simple as. You only need 30m outside 3x a week (2hrs in winter regions).
Another funny thing about milk, is that all the natural vitamin A and D is removed in processing. They literally have to re-fortify it again, so the only reason it’s billed as this “healthy” thing is because it’s basically a lab-made liquid vitamin.