So, I’m kinda new to this Lemmy thingy and the fediverse. I like the fediverse from a technological standpoint. However, I think that, if we gain more and more traction, Lemmy (and by extend the entire fediverse) is a GDPR clusterfuck waiting to happen. With big and expensive repercussions…

Why? Well, according to GDPR, all personal data from EU users must remain in the EU. And personal data goes really far. Even an IP-address is personal data. An e-mail address is personal data. I don’t think there is jurisprudence regarding usernames, so that might be up for discussion.

Since the entire goal of the fediverse is “transporting” all data to all servers inside the ActivityPub/fediverse world, the data of a EU member will be transported all over the place. Resulting in a giant GDPR breach. And I have no idea who will be held responsible… The people hosting an instance? The developers of Lemmy? The developers of ActivityPub?

Large corporations are getting hefty fines for GDPR breaches. And since Lemmy is growing, Lemmy might be “in the spotlights” in the upcoming years.

I don’t like GDPR, and I’m all for the technological setup of the fediverse. However, I definitely can see a “competitor” (that is currently very large but loosing ground quickly) having a clear eye out to eliminate the competition…

What do y’all thing about this?

  • apfel@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    4
    ·
    1 year ago

    “don’t like GDPR”? What’s not to like? Best thing that came out of EU regulation in a long time. And as others have noted you seem to be misinformed about what it actually says…

    • BrokebackHampton@kbin.social
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      1 year ago

      I also can’t wrap my head around “not liking” GDPR

      As a relevant example, seems like only citizens covered by GDPR will be able to request Reddit to remove all of their data from Reddit’s servers since comment deleting tools and scripts are being bypassed, with loads of comments and even entire profiles getting restored by Reddit admins

    • infamousbelgian@lemmy.mlOP
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      1 year ago

      Can you explain where I’m misinformed? I can surely be misinformed about the workings of Lemmy. However, for GDPR you will not “win” it with a simple TOS or something like that.

      If even Google can’t make their Workplace to follow rules in such a way that Workplace can be used according to the AVG rules in the Belgian (well, Flemish) schools, I’m pretty sure that just saying “it’s in the TOS” is not enough…

      But again, no expert so I hope that I am wrong.

  • sab@kbin.social
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    3
    ·
    1 year ago

    I’m not an expert in GDPR and will leave the technical side to those who are, but the fact that the EU actively present at the Fediverse with among others the @EU_Commission represented at their official Mastodon instance, I would be surprised if the GDPR was suddenly weaponised against it.

    GDPR was written with the intention of empowering users over corporations. The Fediverse has the same goal.

    • T156@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      1 year ago

      Although I would be curious about how GDPR deletion would work. Do all instances have to delete it, or is it just the hosting instance?

      • Ulu-Mulu-no-die@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        It’s only the instance on which you create your account that has your personal data, that data is not sent around.

        Your comments are not included, it’s you willingly writing them, not some corporation spreading around your data without your knowledge nor consent, this is what the GDPR is about, data held by corporations that users cannot control in any way, or even have no knowledge about.

  • Ulu-Mulu-no-die@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    2
    ·
    1 year ago

    all personal data from EU users must remain in the EU

    Create your account on a EU server, problem solved.

    Lemmy (fediverse in general) doesn’t send account data away, and posts don’t qualify as personal data, when you publish something to the internet, it’s public by definition.

  • sunaurus@lemm.ee
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    1
    ·
    edit-2
    1 year ago

    And personal data goes really far. Even an IP-address is personal data. An e-mail address is personal data.

    Thankfully, Lemmy instances do not transport this kind of information about their users to other instances!

    • hardypart@feddit.de
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      0
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      1 year ago

      Maybe not IP addresses, but every post and comment you make is your personal data.

      • sunaurus@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        1 year ago

        Public posts and comments are, well, public (and there’s no expectation from users that their posts and comments would be private, considering the nature of what Lemmy is).

        The only way to not transport public posts and comments to the rest of the internet (including but not limited to other Lemmy instances) would be to completely disconnect an instance from the internet 😅

        • nulldev@lemmy.vepta.org
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          GDPR does not distinguish between public or private data.

          GDPR handles public data through propagation. If you download public data that is GDPR covered, the data you downloaded also becomes GDPR covered. You are required to follow all GDPR regulations while handling the downloaded data.

          Remember, GDPR covers almost all “collected personal data”. It does not matter if the data was originally public, and how/where the data was collected. It’s all covered.

          However, Lemmy instances may still be exempt from GDPR as they are non-commercial: https://gdpr-info.eu/recitals/no-18/

          IANAL as usual.

        • hardypart@feddit.de
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          0
          ·
          1 year ago

          You’re confusing “private” with “personal”. My data can be public, but it’s still MY data and I have the right to decide what happens with it and if it should stay public. That’s what the GDPR says and that’s exactly what OP is referring to.

          • sunaurus@lemm.ee
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            You are able to edit and remove your posts on your Lemmy instance. Other Lemmy instances may or may not also reflect these changes, but your instance admin does not have any authority or responsibility to ensure that your previously public posts get deleted anywhere else in the world other than the instance they run.

            That’s exactly how it works everywhere, it’s not a Lemmy specific thing. For example, if you write a public blog post on some public blog service, and later delete it, then it won’t be the responsibility of the blog service owner to remove your post from elsewhere on the internet. It will be your own responsibility to manually request removal from other services which have copies of your post (like archvie.org etc).

            • hardypart@feddit.de
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              0
              ·
              1 year ago

              Now if you want to change that, you’ll have to request a GDPR deletion from every instance you posted it to.

              That’s the interesting point. Do I really have to do that or should I be able to rely on my instance owner that’s located in the EU to take care of that? I’m pretty sure none of us can answer this question. Decentralized services like the Fediverse are probably a new challange for GDPR experts.

                • hardypart@feddit.de
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  0
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Sure, but I in the end it’s not their responsibility.

                  You guys sound so confident, it’s not even funny. GDPR is a huge topic and everyone who already had to deal with it even marginally knows that OP’s fear is absolutely plausible. The GDPR doesn’t give a shit about causing major inconviences or huge workload for platform admins. Ever heard about the GDPR nightmare letter?

        • LollerCorleone@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          24
          ·
          1 year ago

          This. Federation doesn’t transfer private data of the user, just their public facing profile and posts. There is no expectation of them being private.

          • Monkey With A Shell@lemmy.socdojo.com
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            The admin ofba site, not only fedi ones but any site, can only control what’s in their reach. A user could ask as per the GDPR to have their profile and history removed, but data not in the control of the admin is not their responsibility.

            Consider it from the perspective of a traditional site, if someone takes a screenshot of something you post and puts it up somewhere else the originating site has no means to control that or to remove the data from a third party location. The same issue has been fought since the dawn of the internet, people trying to erase past events that have spread far and wide. There are even proffesional services available to try and scrub such things, but in the end if all they can do is send takedown requests to another jurisdiction it’s going to be an impossible task.

          • hardypart@feddit.de
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            0
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            ITT: People that don’t undertand the difference between “personal” and “private”. My posts and comments are my personal data, even if they’re public, and I have the right to decide what happens with it and if it should stay public. That’s what the GDPR says and that’s exactly what OP is referring to.

            • AntY@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              ·
              1 year ago

              Personal data according to gdpr is data that can identify you or be tied to you as an individual. Such things are e-mail addresses, phone numbers, names and so on. Posts and comments does not necessarily fulfill this. If you post your name, yes, but this comment that I’m making now would not be classified as personal data.

  • wintermute@feddit.de
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    1 year ago

    Since the entire goal of the fediverse is “transporting” all data to all servers inside the ActivityPub/fediverse world, the data of a EU member will be transported all over the place.

    It doesn’t work like that, think of your instance being a proxy to the fediverse

    • infamousbelgian@lemmy.mlOP
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      1 year ago

      Is it? I read somewhere that data effectively gets “copied” to the different instances? But that might be wrong info :p

      • hardypart@feddit.de
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        1 year ago

        You’re right. If someone from feddit.de subscribes to a lemmy.world community, the entire content of that community is going to be copied to the feddit.de server and that’s the exact issue OP is referring to.

        • mkulima@baraza.africa
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          0
          ·
          1 year ago

          Then it should be the responsibility of the EU people to avoid joining the fediverse. I do not see a practical way to align with GDPR. The effort is non-trivial and the rewards are extremely minimal.

          From your perspective, what should be the way out?

          • hardypart@feddit.de
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            Then it should be the responsibility of the EU people to avoid joining the fediverse.

            The instances are providing their services in the EU, so it’s legally up to them to comply with the GDPR.

            From your perspective, what should be the way out?

            Honestly, no idea. I’m not even sure if Lemmy in its current shape violates the GDPR in the first place, but if I were the admin of a large feddit instance in the EU I would make sure to get advise from a GDPR consultant.

    • hardypart@feddit.de
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      1 year ago

      But when a lemmy.world user subscribes to a feddit.de community, the entire community will be copied to the lemmy.world server, or am I wrong?

      • curiosityLynx@kbin.social
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        1 year ago

        You are indeed wrong. The email and IP addresses and passwords for example don’t get copied. I’m not well versed enough about how it works to go into more detail.

        • hardypart@feddit.de
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          0
          ·
          1 year ago

          You are indeed wrong. The email and IP addresses and passwords for example don’t get copied.

          I never said that IP addresses and passwords are getting copied.

          The thing that no one seems to understand here is that all my posts, comments and votes and everything are my personal data. My data can be public, but it’s still MY data and I have the right to decide what happens with it and if it should stay public. That’s what the GDPR says and that’s exactly what OP is referring to.

          • SkyNTP@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            0
            ·
            1 year ago

            If what you say is true, then… Email is illegal in the EU. EMAIL.

            Yeah, no, GDPR, although well intentioned against large corporate entities that have all the power in centralized system, is a relic in the context of federated technology. It is both completely unenforceable, and also not really relevant.

            • hardypart@feddit.de
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              0
              ·
              1 year ago

              If what you say is true, then… Email is illegal in the EU. EMAIL.

              No, but there are actually certain things you need to take into consideration when it comes to GDPR and email.

              What the GDPR says:

              Data erasure is a large part of the GDPR. It is one of the six data protection principles: Article 5(e) states that personal data can be stored for “no longer than is necessary for the purposes for which the personal data are processed.” Data erasure is also one of the personal rights protected by the GDPR in Article 17, the famous “right to be forgotten.” “The data subject shall have the right to obtain from the controller the erasure of personal data concerning him or her without undue delay.” There are some exceptions to this latter requirement, such as the public interest. But generally speaking, you have an obligation to erase personal data you no longer need.

              What it means for email: Many of us never delete emails. There are plenty of good reasons: We may need to refer to them someday as a record of our activities or even for possible litigation. But the more data you keep, the greater your liability if there’s a data breach. Moreover, the erasure of unneeded personal data is now required under European law. Because of the GDPR, you should periodically review your organization’s email retention policy with the goal of reducing the amount of data your employees store in their mailboxes. The regulation requires you to be able to show that you have a policy in place that balances your legitimate business interests against your data protection obligations under the GDPR.

              https://gdpr.eu/email-encryption/

              I still don’t see a reason why Lemmy shouldn’t be affected by the GDPR and why it’s probably not compliant in its current state.

              • SkyNTP@lemmy.ml
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                The last paragraph you quoted is in reference to individual responsability and how they access the data. It’s equivalent to saying “don’t look at at this Fediverse post: you are GDPR compliant!”. This only helps you in litigation. We both know that says nothing of where the data can exist. And this is true for any federated system, including email.

                It’s also completely asinine. Suddenly we need to burn snail mail after reading it? Why receive any mail at all if everything is a giant piece of liability? There’s a social contract in communication: a certain assumption that if you give someone a piece of informtion, you are doing just that: giving, not lending. “Lending information” upsets the social structure. GDPR has to be tempered in reality, and this starts even before the fediverse.

                Like I said, GDPR is imperfect. It was written in the context of and solves a problem created by centralized institutions and large beaurocracies. It is also completely unenforceable in a decentralized system. It hardly seems relevant anyway.

                Realisticalpy speaking, those tempered interpretations are probably already existant, and there is already enough precedent for this to be a nothing burger.

                • hardypart@feddit.de
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  This whole thread is full of interpretations and gut feelings. Literally no one here backs up their claims with any kind of evidence.

        • hardypart@feddit.de
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          I think you, being an admin of a huge Lemmy instance, would be well advised to educate yourself on the difference between “public” and “personal” when it comes to GDPR compliance. All the data I create here is my personal data, no matter if it’s my IP, my mail address, posts, comments or votes and the GDPR says that it’s my right to decide what happens with my data and if it should stay public. The fact that I post something publicly doesn’t make my data non-personal.

    • infamousbelgian@lemmy.mlOP
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      1 year ago

      I don’t think a TOS will hold up. GDPR (and the implementation per country) is a law. You can’t bypass a law with a TOS, I think.

      However, I’m definitely not a GDPR expert…