Then you can still engage. I’m not a Zionist. And you can tell that clearly from my arguments.
But I get it. History is complex, particularly in that region. It’s simpler to stick to an oversimplified ideological version of it. Never having to adjust a view just feels safer.
Netanyahu is almost the last person I want to defend. That makes this whole situation a mess, because overall I understand how bad the whole situation for Israel is. For all the ongoing back and forth between “Israel did…” and “someone from the Palestenians did…” over the last 75 years, there are certain turning points. The last one was Oct 7, initiated by the Hamas. The one before, in my eyes, was the 2nd Intifada which came from the Palestenian side instead of taking the 2 state proposal that was on the table for almost 10 years. After that, Israel chose the stance, if there can’t be peace, at least there can be security. They did so most of the time with the person Netanyahu. That was a bad choice, but from that situation there was no good choice to begin with.
For a political solution you need 2 sides who are willing to compromise. From what I’ve seen, the closest the Palestinian side has ever provided was Arafath, but he walked away from a good proposal without even a counter proposal right when the 2nd Intifada started. I don’t know how in you can say it’s only Israel’s making. That’s just not true.
Israel gave up the occupation of Gaza. The Gazeans thanked Israel with electing the Hamas. The Hamas thanked the Gazeans by throwing political opponents from rooftops and letting them lay in the streets as a warning sign to their other fellow Palestinians. Then Israel closed the borders. And the Hamas took every opportunity they could to shoot rockets against Israel and did nothing to improve the living situations for the inhabitants of the Gaza strip.
And from there forward, Israel has no choice but to defend itself with force. There is no political solution with the Hamas.
That doesn’t excuse their agressive settlement behavior in the West Bank, nor their apartheid tendencies. These are in the way of any peaceful solution. But it seems that after Palestinians made it clear there is no chance for peace, Israel said “so be it”.
Perhaps the territory should be returned to the people from whom it was forcibly taken and re-establish Palestine.
I’m pretty certain in hindsight many agree that the foundation of the state Israel in the way it was done was a mistake. But it’s there, and there are only ways into the future, none into the past.
Israel was founded under international law. It’s a state, it’s existence is protected by international law, and, just for the record, delegitimation of the state Israel is a clear marker of a post-WW2 antisemitic statement. A 2 state solution under international law was on the table from the start, but Palestineans didn’t want it back then, too.
I’m absolutely certain that indiscriminately killing at least 10 Palestinians who have nowhere to run for every Israeli who died in a terrorist attack those Palestinians were not responsible for is beyond the pale.
The Hamas has a long record of using civilians as shields, clearly a war crime every single time. International humanitarian law says, civilians can not be targeted, and should be avoided as collateral damage where possible. Where any other country under attack evacuates their civilians out of strike zones, the Hamas prevents their civilians from leaving, or moves them in. We don’t know much about the situation on the ground, but with that background knowledge your 10:1 numbers can as easily be blamed onto the Hamas.
My take is, if you’re non-combatant Gazean, you have 2 enemies. And to me it’s unclear which is more dangerous.
under complex argument…
I have no idea what this is.
A bad translation apparently. Dictionary says I should have used “oversimplified”
No I don’t want children to violently die, nor in any other way. They deserve to live their life. In war, among men and women, children die. Therefore I prefer a world without war.
As far as this under complex argument goes that’s all I can say.
I don’t get the vibe you would listen to what the international humanitarian law says about real world situations where war actually occurs, therefore I won’t waste my time spelling this out.
I visited 3 of the links you gave me. One is newer than my comment, and it is dedicated to UN experts, as opposed to the organization, so still not a contradiction to my comment. They seem biased to me, focusing hard on the “children are dying” argument and totally ignoring any right of Israel for self defense in the aftermath of October 7th. Here’s one thing I don’t understand, maybe you can help me: if Gaza has seen no fresh water for weeks, as so many say, why is it “only” 11.000 dead and not hundreds of thousands, or a million?
The other from 2021 talks about investigations by the ICC against Israel and Hamas. And you know what? I’m glad they’re looking into that. Alas so far it didn’t get to any conclusions.
Then you mixed in the apartheid charge in a comment over genocide. I think that’s incoherent as an argument but won’t fight against that one.
And then there’s the global south, which apparently has a long brewed hatred against Israel for reasons I don’t know. That didn’t start with October 7th. I’m aware of deep seated antisemitism in their leftist parties, and I know that the german Nazis fled to South America when they could, but don’t know enough about their politics to contextualize a single article. So I can’t say anything about that, other than I never heard something from down their that made it clear they even try to get away from antisemitism.
In conclusion the word genocide, which is quite well defined, still doesn’t seem to uphold to the situation in Gaza. Particularly this week seems to show that a genocide is not Israel’s intention, even when it is in a situation of absolute power. At least not while anyone else than their far right extremist parties has something to say.
Now, what happens in situations where the Hamas has absolute power we saw during those dreadful hours on October 7th. They hunt down civilians, stopping at nothing unless stopped by force.
Tell me, how should Israel fight such an opponent, who just today, in the context of a ceasefire called for escalation.
Thinking itself is not easy for many, and that doesn’t even include the critical .
I think that’s two different things. Billionaires can and do get continuously richer also when there are napkins in a restaurant to satisfy customers.
Actually, satisfied customers are return customers, which every businessman knows are the best customers. Amazon certainly knows that. The reason why Amazon is so succesful is because they focus intensely on customer satisfaction. They’re fucking their employers, yes, but they wouldn’t need to. They just do because the regulations allow for it.
Guess you’re one of today’s lucky 10000
According to your statement there must be someone getting fucked. An trade where all parties are satisfied does not seem possible.
Confused. So that’s a thing where you agree?
Or do you think that’s my position?
Or do you just post something to shut down calling outs of propaganda narratives?
As I said in the other comment, not falling for one sides propaganda doesn’t automatically mean the other side is right. What we have on social media is propaganda for a supposed Palestinian side, but overwhelmingly it’s Hamas’ talking points, which are clearly anti Israel, but lacking in the “pro Palestinian” cause.
Oh dear.
Distancing yourself from one propaganda side is all well and fine, but that doesn’t mean the other side is automatically in the right, you know?
And you are using the other side’s words and narratives, which frankly is their propaganda.
Pretty sure you could answer that yourself if you wanted to.
To focus so overly much on Israels propaganda in today’s social media landscape is propaganda itself.
Pretty much on all channels there’s a between 10:1 and 20:1 relationship between pro Palestinian vs pro Israel comments.
Source: https://www.tagesschau.de/faktenfinder/israel-hamas-social-media-100.html
I understand. You refuse to accept something that is fairly obvious for many Lemmy users and want to put a burden of proof on me, and because I don’t want to take on additional work for someone I neither know nor agree with, you are happy to keep your opinion, as am I to keep mine.
Ok, Stalin
Oh there certainly is. You gotta read those comment threads yourself.
It’s popped up in this one, too. It’s really curious how you can read and write enough to answer here, but not see that.
What’s your view on Trump?
The side you defend as being clearly in the right has quite a list of war crimes, including genocide, on their table. At least according to the Genocide Convention and the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, which you also so gladly refer to, at least when it comes to blaming Israel. Here’s why: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd4lrsDRg3HbJqoAf0BlAe7BHJuzpQB_Le27Iureq9vpCoBkw/viewform?pli=1
Double Standards is another marker of antisemitic statements, according to the 3D rule.