Allowing Ukraine to defend itself is just the right thing to do.
Sure, supporting authoritarian government that forces desperate people trapped in Ukraine to die for their interest and political games is the right thing to do.
It is easy to support a genocide when it is not you and not your family that are getting massacred by Zelensky.
this is implemented in a way that forces all existing messaging services to implement this or shut down
This is not possible. Anybody can host a messaging service as a tor onion, and there is nothing they can do about it :)
The only way they can make it work is to basically only allow connections to whitelisted services (not even GFW does that).
I’m hearing this argument over and over again, yet for some reason no one can explain whether giving up land to an invader is always unacceptable, or are there some exceptions? Maybe it’s how long ago the land was taken?
I suspect it’s the latter, and this time period is greater than 10 years (because Crimea is still “rightfully Ukrainian”, right?), but less than a few hundred years (because all the other invaded territories now “rightfully belong to the invader”.
You do understand that almost every piece of land on this planet, that belongs to country A, was conquered from another country B (or from a tribe B if we go long enough into the history, or from family B if go even further, or from some other entity if we go even further)?
Should Poland invade Ukraine to retake Lviv?
Should Finland invade Russia to retake Karelia?
Should Mexico invade USA to retake California?
Should every country in Europe invade every other country in Europe because they all hold some territories that belonged to a different country some time back?
there’s never been any Ukrainian held election
so, there’s been Chinese election allowing for the secession of this territory?
the hypocrisy is mind-blowing :)
When the Taiwanese people democratically declare they want to become part of China.
Wait what? So if people of a region that is internationally recognized as part of another country declare that they want to be part of another country, you are okay with that?
Then how is Donbass and Crimea doing the same is not okay?
Why is it “rightfully theirs” in case of Ukraine, but not “rightfully theirs” in case of China? What the fuck?
So the second option it is.
When is USA planning to send military aid to China to help it reclaim Taiwan that is rightfully theirs?
Ukraine will continue to fight for what is rightfully theirs
Out of curiosity, how do you define rightfully in that case?
If that “rightfully” is defined as “they owned it before”, how long ago does it go? 5 years? 10 years? 100 years? Or just for as long as it is convenient for you? Should Mongolia try to reconquer all the territories it once owned?
Or is it “rightfully” as in “recognized in international law”/“defined by UN” or something like that? In that case, you surely agree that China should fight for Taiwan, right?
Pretty sure Russia “kidnaps” (conscripts) a hell of alot more than Ukraine does.
Russia does have conscription which is totally immoral and wrong as well, but it does not kidnap people into army (or at least does not do that on a scale nearly close to Ukraine).
Ukraine literally does kidnapping (catching people on the streets, running after them and using force to put them into vans/etc. Some people manage to self-defend with pepper-sprays, or outrun them or sometimes got protected by a crowd of people, but those are the lucky ones).
Source: uadraftmuseum.ch, and if you search comments on this post you’ll see another guy posting a link to nytimes (a western media!) talking about the same, but it is paywalled and I cannot read it so I won’t repost it.
Russia also beating Ukrainians in the occupied territories
Yes. Note how I never said that Russia are the good guys. There are no good guys, everybody commits warcrimes (Including Ukraine, USA, and all the other countries that are currently considered good guys by the mainstream media). I am just saying that people in Russia (including Ukrainians on occupied territories) have unimaginably more freedom than people in Ukraine.
forcing them to become Russian citizens
I included a source for my claims, surely you have a source for your claims? There was another article here on lemmy about nuclear power plant where “everything is going terrible right now, because only the intelligent Ukrainians know how to operate it, and they are not allowed to work on it because they have refused to accept Russian citizenship”. So which one is it, are they forced to become Russian citizens or not?
either forcing them into fighting against their own country or ship them off to some labour camp never too be seen again.
Which is so much different from what Ukraine does, right? Or in case of Ukraine it’s all alright because the west supports it, but in case of Russia it’s barbaric?
Btw, any source on “ship them off to some labour camp never too be seen”? I suspect you might have confused history of USSR with current events.
Do you think they are “free” to leave Russia?
Literally, yes. Some of my family (but unfortunately not everyone, because lately escaping this west-supported mass-prison is almost impossible) managed to escape Ukraine by going to occupied territories, and from there to Russia itself, and then they just left Russia and went wherever they wanted. (Obviously nobody here would believe that I’m actually Ukrainian, because as we all know all Ukrainians are happy to die in the meat grinder while screaming “for the glory of Zelensky, my only master”, and those who want their family and friends to stay alive are Russian bots, so you can replace “my family” with “many Ukrainians” if that will make it easier for you to read).
Do you have any sources claiming otherwise?
You naming it conscription instead of kidnapping doesn’t mean it’s not kidnapping. Talk about calling spade a spade…
Would you like to explain what’s exactly dumb about that?
So if you hate Putin so much - then why don’t you go and fight him yourself? Why do you want millions of Ukrainians to die instead of you, for your goals? How can you think you have a moral high ground supporting a genocide?
That’s not freedom.
Have you read what I’ve written? Let me quote myself again:
Ukrainians who failed to escape Ukraine don’t really have a choice other live in fear that today might be the day they (or their family) get kidnapped and sent to the army, or try to escape and get caught by “heroes” of the border patrol who carefully watch that nobody escape the meat grinder (unless they give them a hefty bribe).
You’re absolutely right about Russia having problems you’ve described, I’ve never said Russia is a good place to live (except when comparing to current situation in Ukraine) but in Ukraine people are getting kidnapped and sent to die! Literally! How can you even compare those two things?
If you don’t like what happens in Russia - you can just leave. You are not a hostage! If you like Ukraine so much - go buy a ticket and join army as a volunteer.
If you don’t like what happens in Ukraine - you can’t do anything! You are not allowed to leave country, don’t even dream about going to Russia! You can’t even come close to a border! You are treated worse than a street dog! You can only try to hide from the government until it gets overthrown or until somehow the war ends.
stupid fucking clowns
Ad Hominem
So, wanting my family that is trapped in Ukraine to stay alive makes me a Russian loyalist? How so?
Ukrainians in Crimea and other annexed territories [that are not close to the front lines] have more or less normal life now. They can continue living where they live, or they can at any moment return to Ukraine, nobody is holding them hostage, they are free!
On the other hand, Ukrainians who failed to escape Ukraine don’t really have a choice other live in fear that today might be the day they (or their family) get kidnapped and sent to the army, or try to escape and get caught by “heroes” of the border patrol who carefully watch that nobody escape the meat grinder (unless they give them a hefty bribe).
That’s quite a reasonable one, except
they were unable to discuss
because AFAICS nobody tried to discuss anything with them, so for me it wouldn’t be an easy task to grade their discussion skills. On the other hand I suppose you have a point that their message doesn’t invite a discussion either…
Have a good one.
Thanks, you too.
Before you block me as well (I suppose you will want to do that, as I similarly express unpopular opinions here), could you please answer just one question that intrigues me?
Why is the USA left (I hope it’s not controversial to say that majority on lemmy are left-leaning?), that clearly considers itself to be more intelligent than the right (the right are all conspiracy theorists, all believe in flat earth, don’t trust the science/vaccines, vote for Trump because they are dumb, etc.), is so incapable of having a civilized discussion and exchange of opinions, confuses facts and opinions, and instead prefers to silently downvote everything they don’t agree with and block people with different opinions?
Zelensky will finally have to negotiate and end the war (that is, if he wouldn’t get overthrown/killed before that), and millions of Ukrainians will finally get to live without fear of them/their husbands/fathers/etc. getting kidnapped on the streets and being sent to army to die or get permanently wounded.
Well, you’ve just lost your bet. I condemn both the genocide of Palestinians (done by the USA through the Israel), and the genocide of Ukrainians (done again mostly by the USA through the Ukrainian government. Damn, those guys really do like massacring people all around the globe :/, almost like they are the bad guys, hm…).
Nope, I don’t, good thing you didn’t make a bet on it, otherwise you’d lose two bets in a row.
But I do blame Poland for participating in massacring Ukrainians though. In fact, Poland is among the worst offenders! It helps “heroes” of Ukrainian border guard to catch those who try to escape Zelensky’s meatgrinder, who then get sent straight to the meatgrinder… For that reason, people mostly escape to Romania. Thankfully, Romania is not as sadistic as the rest of the democratic & free world.