Juniper (she/her) 🫐

Can you give a summary of why that is?

Ugh. Seriously? It’s just a chart attempting to simplify people’s gender identity and I even said I see it as more 3D and complex than it is. I’m not going to discuss the merits of the chart. I deleted the whole part about the stupid chart because it doesn’t matter and I don’t care to defend it.

This conversation is over. You pivoted because you know your baseless accusations have been disproven. In the future, try not to be such an annoying asshole when you simply don’t understand someone else’s viewpoint. Goodbye.

Ah. So you’re misunderstanding what I mean by it being biological in nature. It being biological doesn’t mean that there are only two or anything like that. Gender, physical sex, and sexuality, (and probably damn near everything that goes in to who a person is) is on a multiaxal spectrum and people inhabit different areas of this. Those different areas appear to be determined by processes during fetal development. You can be born without sexuality but it is also biological in nature. Does this clarify the confusion here?

… Are you being intentionally obtuse? I never fucking said I don’t believe in a gender or gender fluidity. I keep saying I do and you keep saying I don’t. The only reason haven’t just blocked your ass and moved on is because I know you are generally a good faith poster from experience… Not the rest? Are you fucking serious? Please, try not to be this way. This is embarrassing.

I believe they are trans and that they are the gender they say they are (or have no gender), and I believe they can be fluid or not or anywhere between. Why the hell you think otherwise is your own evidently terrible reading comprehension.

I don’t believe they are correct if they say they were made trans by external forces. That is IT. I said I don’t necessarily believe very aspect of their narrative about how they became trans because people generally aren’t that self aware. I had a conversation with a trans person in this very thread where they said they believed they were made trans and by the end of it they realized they were wrong. And I didn’t at any point tell them that their gender was wrong or that they weren’t trans, because I would never do that.

This is the last time I’m going to bother with you: Quote two statements I made that contradict, not via your own special interpretation but statements I have made and will defend, or kindly leave me alone. Stop being a fucking troll.

Edit: fwiw my app doesn’t show display names or I would have probably assumed you were trans. Sorry about thinking you were cis. Sorry if this gives you dysphoria when you see my username in the future. Feel absolutely more than free to just block me to prevent that. If you come back with the same tired shit I will be blocking you after this. Oh, and feel free to block @june@hexbear.net as well as I might start using that soon.

… Did I say I don’t believe their stated gender?

You’re being extremely obnoxious about what you perceived to be a contradiction because you keep making shit up about what I believe. I already told you I didn’t want to continue this discussion twice. I would rather not block you but this is getting ridiculous.

… Jesus. You’re

I certainly can believe all trans people are trans while not believing that they are necessarily correct about their views of when or how they became trans. I simply don’t necessarily believe every aspect of the narrative they tell about their gender. People aren’t that self aware.

Sorry I assumed you were cis. Nothing you said implied otherwise, you never talked about your experience with gender and referred to trans people in a way that made it sound like you weren’t a part of them. This conversation isn’t going to go anywhere because you are insistent on telling me what I believe and don’t care when I say otherwise. I don’t believe in all that stuff you said I do. I will know to avoid the topic of gender when I see you on this website in the future as well. Goodbye.

AGP = autogynophilia: the idea that a person is a trans woman due to a sexual interest in having a vagina

HSTS = Homosexual Transexual: the idea that a person is a trans woman due to being a homosexual male, in other words that they are transitioning in order to have sex with straight men

Trutrans sounds like it just means “valid” as in they will claim a lot of trans women aren’t trans women unless they are trutrans. Also, it may be those who insist that some are not actually trans because they say they don’t experience gender dysphoria or because they don’t want general surgery.

All of which are old, unsupported, and frankly regressive ideas.

Those are a lot of new words. I kind of want to ask, but I kind of don’t want to know

I believe all trans people. I do believe that all trans people have gender dysphoria (otherwise there wouldn’t be a reason to transition) though many do not recognize it and believe they are trans (which they are) but do not experience dysphoria (which they do). Think of this in a pure motivation sense. One does not make major life changes without something informing that decision, which is what dysphoria is.

I am seriously interested in gender abolitionist takes that aren’t just abolishing the strict roles/styles/behaviors affiliated with gender. I don’t think you can provide this, because gender abolitionists do believe people have an intrinsic gender (or rather, one may have an intrinsic gender, wrt agender individuals) they just don’t believe that one’s gender should be defined by someone else and that a lot of the roles and behaviors attributed to gender are regressive and need abolished. To which I agree. I am a woman but I am not gender conforming (rarely wear dresses or skirts, present relatively butch, and reject all gender roles).

Your rigid line of thinking here could easily convince someone that conversion therapy is a reasonable treatment for gender dysphoria, which it most certainly is not. Because why would it not be, if it could work? My answer to that is that my intrinsic gender is too much a part of me to rip out: you can’t change my gender. I would not be me if you tore my gender out of me.

Frankly, I’m kind of growing tired of discussing trans issues with cis people, especially when they keep telling me I’m biased (“I know why you’re so defensive about this”). I have a gender, if you don’t then that is good for you, but you can’t take my gender from me. Please genuinely consider that this is based on my life experiences, whereas your view is informed second hand on others’ lived experiences, if you wish to continue this discussion with me.

since the metal end can slide in or out by just the right amount.

OMG! I genuinely thought all the tape measures I have handled were a little broken.

My intuition would be floor 2, as it is the lowest floor to the ground that isn’t underground

Gender abolitionism usually focuses on roles and rigidity surrounding it, not the idea that we will eventually have no actual genders. Gender is biologically real but all the social constructs surrounding it are not. If this is not what you have read, I’m interested in links.

But there is no world in which I am not a woman - but very much a world where I am happy to reject the social constructs built up around womanhood.

I still posit that anyone that can actually change their gender (not realize it and change presentation and potentially roles) was gender fluid in the first place.

Yup. My belief is that we are likely to eventually combine the categories of transgender and differences in sexual development (formerly known as intersex) as we discover more about it’s biological origins. The vast majority of people have never been karyotyped and have no idea what their chromosomes are.

Yes, my point in saying “cured” is that it is a loaded statement but is logically consistent with the idea being trans is inflicted upon you by something external, and that would lead to conversion therapy which has been shown to not work.

There does need to be more research. The current research supports what I’ve said, and future research could change that. However, at the very least some people are born trans, even if others somehow become trans in some critical early developmental milestone.

As for the idea that the research is seeking evidence of transness being inherit at birth: that is not the case, there have been many attempts to study so called “sudden onset gender dysphoria” or the idea that someone could suddenly become trans, and those studies can’t find any evidence for that (other than one that asked TERF parents if it seemed sudden to them, who of course said yes). Other studies have shown that people tend to have a concept of their internal gender from about as soon as they can talk, which is the earliest we could possibly test, indicating that if it is not prenatal then very early in life.

Good to know, thank you for the info. That’s really sad.

That’s really sad. It would also explain how she is relating her micropenis, via shame and self-hatred, to being trans.

That’s a good point. I haven’t browsed 4chan since way before they had any LGBT community/rep visible on it, I don’t know what kind of convoluted views they have. Let me guess, some of them unironcally identify as “agp” don’t they?

No someone wouldn’t, because a core tenet of that theory is the critical points part, there is a separate point that influenced genital development and a separate point that influenced mental gender development.