Maybe you haven’t been convinced by a good enough argument. Maybe you just don’t want to admit you are wrong. Or maybe the chaos is the objective, but what are you knowingly on the wrong side of?
In my case: I don’t think any games are obliged to offer an easy mode. If developers want to tailor a specific experience, they don’t have to dilute it with easier or harder modes that aren’t actually interesting and/or anything more than poorly done numbers adjustments. BUT I also know that for the people that need and want them, it helps a LOT. But I can’t really accept making the game worse so that some people get to play it. They wouldn’t actually be playing the same game after all…
We’re still in the growing pains version of it, though, where there are far too many people taking advantage of a legitimate position just for the attention. This isn’t unique to the gender conversation, but it definitely suffers from it.
Another issue is that there is a component of needing to be vocal and firm or no one will take you seriously, but it’s a fine line between that and being obnoxious and over-asking…reminding someone who wants to be considerate is good, being offended at someone intentionally mis-labeling may be necessary, but being offended by honest mistakes or berating someone for not realizing zhe or zher or some newly defined label was a thing definitely hurts the cause.
I would argue “who cares?” And please, explain to me how many “far too many” is? Because the trans population makes up under 1% of the US population, so I’m really trying to wrap my head around <1% is “far too many” of anything.
This is just excuses, I’m sorry. I get “zhe/zher/zhers” is awkward to see, but watch this: “Debra is amazing, have you had zher apple pie?”
Phew, nearly suffered an aneurysm on that one. 🙄
First, your last line is bullshit, it’s the same logic that’s been used for every single oppressed group asking for basic respect from their oppressors.
When women standing up against sexual harassment really started to gain national attention, the news anchors made the exact same arguments you’re making now. “Oh, it’s just a man being friendly! Now men won’t want to hire women because they’ll be sued! We’ve behaved this way for decades and now it’s a problem? God, Debbie is such a cunt for reporting me for rubbing her shoulders, I was just trying to be nice!”
When women reported it, it was often, “They’re just looking for a payout/attention! Why didn’t they bring this up for the last X amount of time?! Why do women have to be so rude about it?!”
When gay marriage was being fought for, what did we hear? “Oh, can’t they keep that behind closed doors? It just makes me uncomfortable, I don’t think the children should see that! It’s always been Adam and Eve for me, I’m 40 years old, how am I supposed to learn to use the word “partner” instead of “husband/wife”?!”
Notice how it’s always the oppressed who are asking for too much, always? Always, it’s always the oppressed asking for too much. But when they say, “Hey, society, can you do XYZ to show me some basic dignity and respect?” what are we met with?
“We’re still in the growing pains, people are taking advantage, we need to be patient, you need to know your place and when it’s ok to speak up, but make sure you know the correct amount to speak up, otherwise they have the right to just not respect you.”
For fucking words, that’s what y’all are doubling down on, something that costs you no money or effort beyond treating someone like a person, and respecting their reasonable request. They’re not asking for you to paint their face from memory, or have their star-chart memorized and they yell at you for not knowing that Mercury was in retrograde, or chastising you for not knowing the exact date and time they were born.
If they’ve introduced themselves and their pronouns, and you can’t be bothered to respect that, you’re just a dick at best and transphobic at worst. It’s really that simple, it’s a sign of respect, and any excuse for why you can’t use words is just an excuse to disrespect those you don’t feel deserve it. And that’s an internal issue the individual needs to get over, but the LGBTQ+ community doesn’t need to coddle a society that can’t be bothered to show them the respect of using proper pronouns.
You seem to be primed to take everything as bad faith almost intentionally. Not understanding that arguments have two sides is what keeps conversations from happening, not what settled them. Yes, it is not a huge burden to remember someone’s pronoun, but people have a lot on their mind and something that has been one way for the majority of most people’s lives is absolutely going to take some time ‘not to get wrong’ even for people who are honestly trying, yet you act as though it’s rude not to suddenly find it natural. If i told you I’d find it rude not to remember everyone’s favorite color, would you jump to making an effort to learn everyone’s favorite color? Now, was your first instinct when reading that example an indignant response that it was insensitive because ‘favorite color’ isn’t as identifying as a person’s gender?
I understand that many people discount a person’s gender or sexual preference, or even sexual abuse in order to minimize it, use examples of people taking advantage of it, or lying about it in order to dismiss the larger group of people who have real claims and preferences and experiences… But those things come from a real place too, and trying to bully or shame people for it is the same thing you accuse others of.
Honestly this conversation has gotten far too broad to even address all the differences of opinion we have, but if there’s one thing we might be able to agree on is that people don’t like being minimized, whether it’s about their gender, or if it’s their struggle with understanding sometimes struggle with gender. If you insist on insisting that the only valid argument is that everyone takes it as seriously as you do, you’re accomplishing a net negative for the cause.
Then stop arguing otherwise. Stop making excuses. We get it, no one is going to get it the first time, no one is going to remember everything.
By your logic, fascists deserve a seat at the table because otherwise we can’t have a discussion about fascism. Racists deserve a seat at the table because otherwise we can’t see their point of view. White supremacists need a seat at the table because otherwise we’d only hear from those they hate.
So you’re just, again, victim blaming and refusing to show any examples of this supposed attention seeking. You got anything beyond a handful of cases over the decades?
You’re right, the amount of respect a person receives should be based on the gender pronouns they use and the overwhelming inconvenience they apparently place on the general population. Yep, respect for a human being should be a debate.
When are you going to blame trans people for Harris losing like the rest of the liberal base seems ready to? I mean, we have to engage with that point of you, right, we have to tolerate the intolerant, right?
Right.
That’s where you lose the argument entirely. We don’t have to tolerate the intolerant… Nothing i said suggests that outside of your insistence on being offended. You don’t tolerate the worst examples of the other side, but you at least take a breath to try to understand the well intentioned members who don’t see things your way.
Except for the most extreme cases you can come up with, nothing is black and white, everything is grey, and your insistence that i must be a bad guy because i challenge anything makes you not terribly worth engaging.
Except for those baiting the conversation, everyone has reasons for feeling how they do on a topic, even if it’s just defaulting to it because of their social circle, but you are not a good champion of the cause of all you can come up with is mocking straw men arguments and feigning indignance.
I’m still waiting for evidence of all of these numerous cases of people using pronouns for attention, and all these people making up sexual assault claims. You got any?
Since I’ve clearly lost the argument entirely (sure, bud, sure), you clearly must have a plethora of evidence and examples that actually support your claim.
This entire comment is attacking me, and nothing that I actually said, while using generalizations to paint this picture that I don’t understand unless I can use extremely specific examples.
What part of “This entire debate is a debate about respect” do you not understand, and what argument is there to be had about that? I’d love to hear it, I’d love for you to actually engage with anything I’ve said beyond “yOu HaVe To UnDeRsTaNd ThEiR pOiNt Of ViEw.”
I already covered the grey areas, if you actually what I wrote, you’re just being willfully ignorant about it. “No one should be yelled at for a genuine mistake, but eventually it’s not a mistake and you need to grow.” Wow, yeah, whole lot of grey area in that one too, PHEW, we’re demanding the world.
I asked you for statistical evidence to back up your claims and you’ve provided none, so I’ve had to argue your own ridiculous arguments that fell apart under the most basic scrutiny. Sorry you have a terrible take on this? That’s my fault too, that’s me mocking straw men arguments (so you’re admitting that your arguments are all bad faith, straw men arguments, glad to hear it) and feigning indignance?
I’m not feigning anything, once again, using preferred pronouns is basic respect to another human being, and while no one should be offended by genuine mistakes, your continued defense of not showing trans people respect if their pronouns aren’t up to your standard, is transphobic.
So, I apologize if someone who refuses to provide any evidence to back up their claims that there are so very many instances of people making up pronouns, or any instance of how someone requesting certain pronouns creates such an undo burden on the rest of society, isn’t worth me engaging with further.
Keep making excuses for why you have it so much worse than the marginalized group who’s request for respect is apparently a fucking debate.
Absolute clown.
Your arguing 8 different lines that have nothing to do what i said. You’ve replied to nothing in any grey area, you’ve only taken each example to a black or white extreme and then mocked it. What exactly does statistical significance have to do with 'it’s going to take a bit for the culture as while to understand that, and why, gender is so important.
If you really can’t get you mind wrapped around this, maybe this will help. There are still people violently against trans people existing, and mocking and degrading them isn’t going to help. So you think mocking and degrading people who are at least nominally on you side is a good idea? Do you think driving away people who are almost there is a good way to get people on your side? Or do you think a little understanding on your side might be a better way to go?