Analysts have warned Windows 10 end of life plans could spark a global torrent of e-waste, with millions of devices expected to be scrapped in the coming years.
Research from Canalys shows that up to 240 million PCs globally could be terminated as a result of the shift over to Windows 11, raising critical questions about device refreshes and the responsibility of vendors to extend life cycles.
If only you could put linux on them so they get security updates and give those to poor kids. Shame that is not possible. /s
It’s not possible. I need software that runs only on windows, so as much as I’d like to I can never switch. The only thing I can do is maybe do a vm passthrough thing - except I don’t want to spend a couple of grand on a new pc. People have jobs, real jobs, we have to work instead of fucking around distro hopping. A whole bunch of people could possibly switch to linux, but it’s still such a major pain in the ass that nobody will do it unless they are forced into it. Expect hacked win 11 installs
While I agree with you that some software isn’t capable of running on Linux (even through wine), there is another aspect that’s important to remember. Want and choice. The software that doesnt run on Linux is developed only for Windows because of market share. If more people used Linux, and more importantly, demanded Linux support, more software would support it. I WANT to use Linux instead of windows, so in order for that to become a reality, I push companies to support it and I talk to people and encourage trying Linux out. Can everyone make the switch? No, but some can; and the more that do the more Linux will be supported.
Your voice and opinion and choice matters. Don’t let a big corporation steal that from you. Even if you want to use Windows, you should still have the choice.
The “give those to poor kids” part was such a foreign concept you failed to even acknowledge the words existence. wow.
I have no idea what you’re about here
He’s commenting on how you missed the entire point of his comment regarding how older systems can have another OS put on it and given to an underprivileged person, specifically a kid. If you’re an exceptional case who has to find a way to use old equipment with Windows, fine, there are already ways to do that, but if you actually don’t understand his original comment or his reply in context of his original comment, then you’re pretty stupid.
So,
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you’re called an exception, not a rule. Just because YOU need windows doesn’t mean literally no one would have have use for ewaste revived through Linux.
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I run programs made exclusively for windows on Linux using wine daily. And
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maybe you like to fuck around distro hopping when you use Linux, the rest of us just fucking use our computers like a normal person. (See, I can be condescending too).
I’m called the vast majority. I can’t use my software on wine because it’s not supported by my vendors. It’s nice that you use things, but try working in architecture, civil engineering and construction and let me know how that works for you.
Let me be even more condescending - I use things I need to do my work. I don’t jerk off to linux or windows. If there was an option to move to mac I would do it. That’s using a thing like normal person, you use thing get money
I disagree, the vast majority just need a browser, your use case may be quite common, but definitely not the majority.
Wow, I didn’t know poor children were allowed to be civil engineers, that’s so progressive! /s
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I guess most of the world is stuck jerking off to oss instead of working whatever their professions are. Anyway, we get windows 10 support until 2028 I guess? So nobody cares about all of this shit anyway. Oh, and for the dudes with the idea of sending western used crap to poor kids… wow
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The point is that we need things that work to keep working. Not pass the shit to the poors, keep using what works
This is a hilarious take considering you’re using Lemmy right now
Lemmy works, you just open a browser. I don’t see how it compares?
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Wine works pretty well for a large percentage of Windows programs
Wine is not a practical solution for your average user.
It is actually. On distros that come pre installed with wine, running windows programs is as easy as clicking on the exe just like on windows and if it’s not pre installed than its easy to do.
give those to poor kids
People have jobs, real jobs, we have to work
If you are a kid forced to have a job, blink twice and CPS will be dispatched (hopefully).
Ok I’ll bite. What’s the software you “need”?
Oh I don’t “need” it at all, like I don’t “need” my job, electricity or running water. Autodesk shit, some other things. Imagine - it doesn’t work on anything except windows. And it’s like that for 70 or 80 percent of my colleagues (there are things for apple). And let me tell you, Autodesk barely want to make thigs work on windows, they hate their customers for real
A lot of Congolese children died in humiliating and painful ways for that e-waste. Now many more will suffer and die. The good news is that Microsoft executives are probably getting a great bonus out of it for their stellar leadership and business acumen.
People are mad at MS for being MS. MS isn’t great, Windows is flawed, and there should be better alternatives. People would be quick to move to Linux if it worked for them. Most desktops now are for gaming. Most gamers have Nvidia. Linux famously has issues with Nvidia because 90% of the distros out there decided to jump on to Wayland before it was even half done. If that’s the state of Linux where my 8-year-old Windows 10 machine still gets updates regularly and runs fine. Windows 10 will actively prevent you from trying to upgrade and bricking your system whereas Linux is absolutely like “Go ahead, hope you read all the patch notes for the 1000s different updates you are about to get!” Most people will go with Windows because Linux doesn’t work for them.
Overall Linux has the power to be good, it just doesn’t have the community will power to do so.
How the narrative has turned Nvidias active sabotage into Linux maintainers fault is beyond me.
Latest for their reluctance to act on scalpers it should be transparent what you’re getting into with Nvidia.
And then people like you write thing like this… Why?!
Nvidia works fine on X11. You might say it’s Nvidia’s fault for not supporting Wayland more or not having open drivers but the truth is, it doesn’t truly matter. What matters is the end result.
Wanna come configure optimus for me?
On windows it’s trivial.
I think the disconnect here is that others are saying “they aren’t supporting us,” and your response is pretty much “lol, abandon what you’re doing and go back to the corporations.” A totally fair take, but how you’re delivering it comes across as missing their point.
Also “it works on windows” is a terrible rebuttal in a discussion where you first say “it works fine on x11”
I think the disconnect here is that others are saying “they aren’t supporting us,” and your response is pretty much “lol, abandon what you’re doing and go back to the corporations.”
My point is that Linux does nothing to make it easy to support. Nvidia even has made an open source kernel driver. https://github.com/NVIDIA/open-gpu-kernel-modules Nvidia is doing a lot of work to support Linux and people don’t seem to see it.
Also “it works on windows” is a terrible rebuttal in a discussion where you first say “it works fine on x11”
A question to configure Nvidia Optimus is also a terrible rebuttal in the first place. Optimus is blocked because Linux kernel doesn’t want proprietary blobs. AMD has the same exact issue.
The problem is that nvidia’s drivers are shit but we couldn’t do anything because for the longest time, for nvidia cards to work at a decent speed, it requires the drivers to be signed by nvidia.
We couldn’t do anything and you are blaming us for that.
Now that this, AFAIK, has been lifted new things like NVK are emerging.
The problem has been reluctance abd uncooperativeness from nvidia, not the linux community
I’m not blaming any Linux users for that. I’m saying this is the trade-offs of Linux and they are unacceptable to most people.
Same on linux
So really a moot point, isn’t it?
on my nvidia linux laptop it works perfectly, thank you very much. (if you actually need help I can)
The cause is what should matter because that’s what could influence future decisions.
And there is no Wayland mandate anyway so I don’t understand that side of the argument either - there is no “Linux” in this room who decided to switch…
So then Linux as a community needs to foster better working relations and funding for developers to get major things working on their platform.
there is no “Linux” in this room who decided to switch…
No, it’s more of a community hivemind which is part of the issue. A hivemind can act together for the most part but it increasingly becomes hard to have direction on a hivemind. It goes where it wants, you can’t direct it but only offer it paths. So the majority of Linux users seem to want to scream that Linux is fine to use for common users while also saying “Well we don’t need to be a majority OS anyways, we shouldn’t invest time into trying to become one.” Any feedback actual users give to Linux communities ends up like this discussion, just filled with excuses or remarks that the user is holding it wrong. Using the wrong hardware, using the wrong distro, not being knowledgeable enough. Yet they do nothing to resolve those issues.
So regarding this part:
that’s what could influence future decisions.
I don’t think anything can do that. Linux future decisions aren’t influenceable except by contributors and they do what they want without really being able to tell them that the OS they’ve contributed to is somehow broken.
See and that’s what’s backwards from my point of view. Even though I was on win mainly back then I refused to buy Nvidia because of their shitty practices.
I’m talking about your and my behavior not about anyone else. :)
Cool, AMD also isn’t a saint: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_FX#Controversy https://www.pcgamer.com/starfield-partners-with-amd-and-oh-boy-the-internet-is-not-happy/ every major company has it’s issues. I don’t hate AMD, I’d probably still buy them if I found them as good as Nvidia but overall I don’t. They still do some shady stuff like blocking rival upscalers or straight-up lying to customers.
So if you base your opinion of a company around one thing, that’s fine. More power to you. I see these large corporate hardware overlords as all the same and work with what makes my life easier.
My base opinion is flexibility. You blamed first Linux then Wayland now you’re what about AMD… What’s YOUR point?
You can stick with windows and Nvidia your whole life all I ask is not spread your bullshit from your OP.
Both Intel and AMD GPUs work fine on Linux. Both work fine with Wayland.
Wayland has been around for over a decade and has been in a usable state for the last 3 or so years.Attributing the fact that Nvidia stuff still barely works to the fact that some distros have made Wayland the default is just stupid wrong.
Besides, Nvidia experience isn’t/wasn’t the smoothest even on Xorg. Linux desktop is simply not a priority for Nvidia.
Both Intel and AMD GPUs work fine on Linux. Both work fine with Wayland.
k, so for the least used hardware, linux works fine. Good to know.
Wayland has been around for over a decade and has been in a usable state for the last 3 or so years.
Eh, no, KDE last year just barely started working with Wayland.
Attributing the fact that Nvidia stuff still barely works to the fact that some distros have made Wayland the default is just stupid wrong.
The popular distros are what counts. Debian, Ubuntu, and Fedora. Just because you have some minor 0.00001% usage distro that still defaults to X11 doesn’t really matter.
Besides, Nvidia experience isn’t/wasn’t the smoothest even on Xorg. Linux desktop is simply not a priority for Nvidia.
Worked well enough for me to run into the dozen of other issues that Linux has. While I am sure you will just blow it off as not the true fault of Linux, the result is the same. I like most people want a usable environment. Linux doesn’t provide that out of the box. You can argue excuses for it all day but the end of it is, it’s not going to be a useful OS until it works out of the box with things like wacom tablets (which are broken with nvidia drivers), xbox controllers (which are just broken unless you do research and install the correct driver), and tons of incompatible software (which I am sure you can blame the developers for.) The end result is the same though, you don’t have a working environment.
k, so for the least used hardware, linux works fine.
Yeah, basically. Which raises a question: how companies with much smaller market share can justify providing support, but Nvidia, a company that dominates the GPU market, can’t?
The popular distros are what counts.
Debian supports several DEs with only Gnome defaulting to Wayland. Everything else uses X11 by default.
Some other popular distros that ship with Gnome or KDE still default to X11 too. Pop!_OS, for example. Zorin. SteamOS too, technically. EndeavorOS and Manjaro are similar to Debian, since they support several DEs.
Either way, none of those are Wayland exclusive and changing to X11 takes exactly 2 clicks on the login screen. Which isn’t necessary for anyone using AMD or Intel, and wouldn’t be necessary for Nvidia users, if Nvidia actually bothered to support their hardware properly. But I digress.
Worked well enough for me to run into the dozen of other issues that Linux has
Oh, it’s no way perfect. Never claimed it is.
I like most people want a usable environment. Linux doesn’t provide that out of the box.
This both depends on the disto you use and on what you consider a “usable environment”.
If you extensively use Office 365, OneDrive, need ActiveDirectory, have portable storage encrypted with BitLocker, etc. then, sure, you won’t have a good experience with any distro out there. Or even if you don’t, but you grab a geek oriented distro (e.g. Arch or Gentoo) or a barebones one (e.g. Debian) you, again, won’t have the best experience.
A lot of people, however, don’t really do a whole lot on their devices. The most widely used OS in the world, at this point in time, is Android, of all things.
If all you need to do is use the web and, maybe, edit some documents or pictures now and then, Linux is perfectly capable of that.
Real life example: I’ve switched my parents onto Linux. They’re very much not computer savvy and Gnome with it’s minimalistic mobile device-like UI and very visual app-store-like program manager is significantly easier for them to grasp. The number of issues they ask me to deal with has dropped by… A lot. Actually, every single issue this year was the printer failing to connect to the Wifi, so, I don’t suppose that counts as a technical issue with the computer, does it?
wacom tablets
I use Gnome (Wayland) with an AMD GPU. My tablet is plug and play… Unlike on Windows. Go figure.
Yeah, basically. Which raises a question: how companies with much smaller market share can justify providing support, but Nvidia, a company that dominates the GPU market, can’t?
I feel like it’s the opposite as Nvidia provides a lot of Linux support by providing an open source kernel module (https://github.com/NVIDIA/open-gpu-kernel-modules) while AMD gets proprietary blobs into the Linux kernel ( https://trisquel.info/en/wiki/configure-2d-and-3d-graphics-acceleration). How come Linux is supporting AMD more than Nvidia currently?
You’re linking a post… From 2010. AMD replaced radeon with their open source drivers (AMDgpu) in 2015. That’s what pretty much any AMD GPU that came out in the last 10 years uses now.
Furthermore, the AMDgpu drivers are in-tree drivers, and AMD actively collaborate with the kernel maintainers and developers of other graphics related projects.
As for Nvidia: their kernel modules are better than nothing, but they don’t contain a whole lot in terms of actual implementation. If before we had a solid black box, now, with those modules, we know that this black box has around 900 holes and what comes in and out of those.
Furthermore, if you look at the page you’ve linked, you’ll see that “the GitHub repository will function mostly as a snapshot of each driver release”. While the possibility of contributing is mentioned… Well, it’s Nvidia. It took them several years to finally give up trying to force EGLStreams and implement GBM, which was already adopted as the de-facto standard by literally everybody else.
The modules are not useless. Nvidia tend to not publish any documentation whatsoever, so it’s probably better than nothing and probably of some use for the nouveau driver developers… But it’s not like Nvidea came out and offered to work on nouveau to make up to par and comparable to their proprietary drivers.
Nvidia on wayland really isn’t that bad nowadays. Hell I would say that it’s pretty good even
With a 1080 it hard locks on start up. With a 3080, same results, with my 1660, same results. Tested with Fedora 38.
maybe try Nobara or PopOS that provide support for nvidia ootb
I’ll check again but I believe as I was testing out Linux distros to put on my kid’s laptop just 2 weeks ago, I tested PopOS and it somehow failed. I think it failed to boot entirely because some service not launching. I’d need to double-check that though. Overall I had about 6 distros to go through and moved on. I’ve stayed away from Nobara because it doesn’t seem like a well-trodden path.
I’ve looked at jumping back into FreeBSD or perhaps going to Gentoo but frankly, that’s more if I was going to turn my whole computer into a hobby project and I have other hobbies I want to use my computer for.
“most” desktops are used in business and other organizations, not by gamers, and it is these customers and their systems that will be the bulk of the e-waste generated by the forced-obsolescence of their hardware due to 10’s EOL and 11’s ‘new’ requirements.
At least one computer in every US household (these stats show 2 but let’s just keep it one https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107206/average-number-of-connected-devices-us-house/ since it is an average). It’s hard to say that desktops are mostly used in business since there are only 754,633 office workers in the US (https://www.zippia.com/office-worker-jobs/demographics/) and 131.43 million households. ( https://www.statista.com/statistics/183635/number-of-households-in-the-us/ )
Also, many people used Windows XP after its EoL, so much so that they increased it. It’s likely going to be the case here. Windows 10 EoL doesn’t mean the end of use. People seriously, care little about security. They don’t care about having the latest updates. They care about using a functioning computer.
only 754,633 office workers
Did you actually think about this for a second? Do you really think only 0.2% of the American population or 0.4% of American workers are working in the office? This should be a lesson on not to pick the first Google result.
I did not think about it because this whole conversation is useless to me.
Linux is only a problem for folks used to someone else. Also, the article is about ewaste. Meaning, these machines are going to be trashed unless someone puts linux on them. So I’d say your diatribe of misinformation was misplaced.
Linux is only a problem for folks used to someone else.
I assume you mean for folks used to something else and if that’s what you mean, no, it’s not. People want to play minecraft, fortnite, and use office without problems. Hell, right now with how the Nvidia/Wayland situation is, I can’t even launch the fedora 36 live cd to install it without it crashing on my 3080, amd ryzen 9.
Also, the article is about ewaste. Meaning, these machines are going to be trashed unless someone puts linux on them. So I’d say your diatribe of misinformation was misplaced.
No, it doesn’t, It means they’ll be using Windows 10 without patching. At the EoL, Windows 10 doesn’t uninstall itself.
At EoL, corporate security tells the IT department to uninstall it.
Windows works great because MS tapes it back together slightly faster than it falls apart.
When EoL hits, those devices are either trashed, firewalled into oblivion, or assimilated into the kube.
At EoL, corporate security tells the IT department to uninstall it.
In that case, big corporations are already on Windows 11 and have thrown away any Windows 10 computer that couldn’t upgrade. Most of those machines go home with people though.
Windows works great because MS tapes it back together slightly faster than it falls apart. When EoL hits, those devices are either trashed, firewalled into oblivion, or assimilated into the kube.
if this was true then Windows XP and 7 wouldn’t have lasted as long as they did.
I know someone who only just switched from XP to 10. They literally did it yesterday, after battling with 10 for a couple of months - eventually they relented and replaced the components that were simply too old to work with 10. They only upgraded they reached a point where too much of the software they relied upon ceased being compatible with XP. Technically their 15 year old graphics card is now unnecessary landfill, since it was working and my friend didn’t want to stop using it - but I’m not sure I’d say a graphics card that has been in continuous use for so long could really be considered “wasted” even if it was still functional at the time of disposal.
Seems to me that the problem of working computers (and individual components) going to waste while still being usable, due to changes in software requiring changes in OS is not new. The only way to prevent it would be to ban all further development of both hardware and software, so that hardware never becomes out of date.
@frog @MJBrune I don’t think we need to ban development, I think we need to resume focus on optimization so that things like a chat app don’t take up 1+ GB of RAM for example. If the operating system can still fit in old hardware’s specs, then unless someone is trying to do a task that is demanding for the currently available hardware (and it sounds like 15yo graphics card ain’t in that demographic) then it should largely be a case of update operating system, grab new versions of programs, and be about your day.
You say that, but just like with XP, Microsoft announced a paid subscription to Windows 10 security updates for up to 3 years after the EOL date. There are probably a good number of companies who haven’t switched yet or will not be able to switch easily.
Sure I feel like the difference there is large corporations vs companies. I worked with a company that used Windows 98 in 2010. Probably used it until they shut down in 2019. That one computer probably lasted the lifetime of the company.
So those who can’t switch, won’t, and that’s fine, it’s still a usable computer without putting Linux on it. Those who can put Windows 11 on their computers will. Those who can afford new computers will upgrade. It’s not like these computers weren’t going to get replaced at one point anyway. Like this article points out, it “could” prompt a torrent of e-waste but realistically, it probably will produce the same amount of e-waste as we always have but now be under a different lens.
Yes being pedantic is easy. Did you have a point? What does nvidia’s failings have to do with anything? Pull that garbage out, drop in linux mint and donate it to a poor kid that needs it for school.
minecraft works without problems on linux and there is, libre office, only office and hell even google docs on linux. and fortnite is one of the few games that don’t work on linux because of the anti cheat that normally supports linux but doesn’t spesifically on fortnite because epic hates linux
minecraft works without problems on linux
Bedrock edition.
libre office, only office and hell even google docs on linux
Sure a bunch of software suites that have their own problems or google docs which to say “even it runs on Linux” is extremely silly. Anything that runs chrome runs google docs.
fortnite is one of the few games that don’t work on linux
Most games don’t run on Linux, and even with Proton, a lot of games do not work well. A few of them are Castle Crashers, Never Alone, A Hat In Time, and a lot of older Unity games. They are all marked as “working” but in practice, they don’t.
