I have been in very macho environments and with guys. Most have been approachable and helpful. Girls not so much.
Have you considered that your experiences in macho environments with guys could be primarily due to your appearance and demeanor? And that your experiences with women being unapproachable could be due to that same appearance and demeanor, as well as the institutionalized power dynamics and physical inequalities between men and women?
I’m not saying that it’s easy to connect on a deep emotional level with platonic female friends (or romantic partners) as a man. I’m just saying that it’s not necessarily because women are intentionally excluding you; like someone elsewhere in the thread said, many men have been victimized of the patriarchy, too.
Maybe I should give more context. I have been in macho environments but not exclusively. I’m saying a typical macho environments that some women think is horrific and uncaring, is actually more caring and better for mental health of a man than any female relationship outside of a close intimate one.
I’m an guy with a bang in the middle BMI. But I have played rugby a lot and I have done things like camping, fighting, roughhousing, drinking. I’m a typical man’s, man not an extreme example just an average one. I grew up with females friends, had female friends in school, uni and post. Lived with girls. Best friend in work was a girl. Old friendship group from my hometown is 50:50 guys:girls
I believe I’m fairly approachable as a guy and not threatening.
Women are terrible at giving sympathy or comfort to men. Whenever you voice your insecurities to them it’s a mistake. The “worst”, most “toxic masculinitiy” environments are better than the best women encounter (outside of relationships or your mum)
The additional context is helpful, and I’m not trying to minimize your experiences. I’m just saying that an average guy who’s played rugby and is a “typical man’s man” can be inherently and unintentionally threatening to women, even if you personally have a friendly relationship with those women. Now some of this is likely cultural and country specific. I’m guessing from your reply times and mentioning rugby, uni, and camping that you’re from Aus (or at least not the US). Most of my background is in the western US, so I understand that in your situation, things are probably totally different than my experiences. However, I have also spent lots of time in mixed friend groups, in traditional male-dominated areas (including rugby teams, interestingly), in very conservative spaces (as a very liberal person), and my experiences have been markedly different than yours.
I believe I’m fairly approachable as a guy and not threatening.
The issue isn’t necessarily you. Women have been trained through long and often traumatic personal histories that men, especially traditionally masculine men, are dangerous. Add to that the fact that when you start to open up about emotional issues, your behavior starts to deviate from “normal” guy behavior. Not a problem, except that now you’re an average guy (which usually means significantly larger and stronger than an average woman) who is behaving in unexpected ways, which means you’re unpredictable from the point of view of a woman.
None of her perception or fear is your fault, but it is literally a dangerous situation from the woman’s point of view.
Women are terrible at giving sympathy or comfort to men.
I don’t necessarily disagree; I’m just trying to get you to think about whether that’s because women don’t care or because in nearly every culture, women need to be exceptionally cautious around men, especially men in emotional distress that might behave unpredictably. Even if they know you really well under normal circumstances, when you start to deviate from “normal” behavior, women need to be on their guard.
The “worst”, most “toxic masculinitiy” environments are better than the best women encounter
And that’s where you lose me. Yes, “masculine environments” can be a great place to open up and get emotional support, but they can also reinforce harmful habits and act as an echo chamber (much like male-dominated internet discourse). I’m not saying that you should replace your male friends with female friends, or that you should stop talking to your male friends. I’m just saying that women can also provide that support in many circumstances (in my experience).
If you’re consistently having bad experiences when you talk about emotional issues with women, then it may be the way you present the issues, the group dynamics, or the specific women that you choose to open up to. To say point blank that “The worst, most ‘toxic masculinity’ environments are better than the best women encounter” is where I disagree.
I’m saying women being horrible and hurtful to men is something they need to work on. Using men as an excuse for why women can be horrible is unacceptable.
Let me ask you a question. Are all the stereotypical incels right how they treat women because some women have treated some man bad? No. So why are you saying the inverse is acceptable? That’s the only point I’m making. Women need to do a lot better with handling themselves. That’s not mens fault. Honestly this conversation is a waste of time.
For thr record. I’m Welsh and I was in Aus for a time but now I’m in NZ. Coincidently I seen two guys get dumped, one from each country. One happened just after dad died. Other happened when he went home to his nans funeral over the phone.
Rugby is integral to all three of those cultures and women are regularly involved. All blacks are everywhere and are a cultural icon on every from of adverstimement. You’re mistaking how men only that is.
Have you considered that your experiences in macho environments with guys could be primarily due to your appearance and demeanor? And that your experiences with women being unapproachable could be due to that same appearance and demeanor, as well as the institutionalized power dynamics and physical inequalities between men and women?
I’m not saying that it’s easy to connect on a deep emotional level with platonic female friends (or romantic partners) as a man. I’m just saying that it’s not necessarily because women are intentionally excluding you; like someone elsewhere in the thread said, many men have been victimized of the patriarchy, too.
Maybe I should give more context. I have been in macho environments but not exclusively. I’m saying a typical macho environments that some women think is horrific and uncaring, is actually more caring and better for mental health of a man than any female relationship outside of a close intimate one.
I’m an guy with a bang in the middle BMI. But I have played rugby a lot and I have done things like camping, fighting, roughhousing, drinking. I’m a typical man’s, man not an extreme example just an average one. I grew up with females friends, had female friends in school, uni and post. Lived with girls. Best friend in work was a girl. Old friendship group from my hometown is 50:50 guys:girls
I believe I’m fairly approachable as a guy and not threatening.
Women are terrible at giving sympathy or comfort to men. Whenever you voice your insecurities to them it’s a mistake. The “worst”, most “toxic masculinitiy” environments are better than the best women encounter (outside of relationships or your mum)
The additional context is helpful, and I’m not trying to minimize your experiences. I’m just saying that an average guy who’s played rugby and is a “typical man’s man” can be inherently and unintentionally threatening to women, even if you personally have a friendly relationship with those women. Now some of this is likely cultural and country specific. I’m guessing from your reply times and mentioning rugby, uni, and camping that you’re from Aus (or at least not the US). Most of my background is in the western US, so I understand that in your situation, things are probably totally different than my experiences. However, I have also spent lots of time in mixed friend groups, in traditional male-dominated areas (including rugby teams, interestingly), in very conservative spaces (as a very liberal person), and my experiences have been markedly different than yours.
The issue isn’t necessarily you. Women have been trained through long and often traumatic personal histories that men, especially traditionally masculine men, are dangerous. Add to that the fact that when you start to open up about emotional issues, your behavior starts to deviate from “normal” guy behavior. Not a problem, except that now you’re an average guy (which usually means significantly larger and stronger than an average woman) who is behaving in unexpected ways, which means you’re unpredictable from the point of view of a woman.
None of her perception or fear is your fault, but it is literally a dangerous situation from the woman’s point of view.
I don’t necessarily disagree; I’m just trying to get you to think about whether that’s because women don’t care or because in nearly every culture, women need to be exceptionally cautious around men, especially men in emotional distress that might behave unpredictably. Even if they know you really well under normal circumstances, when you start to deviate from “normal” behavior, women need to be on their guard.
And that’s where you lose me. Yes, “masculine environments” can be a great place to open up and get emotional support, but they can also reinforce harmful habits and act as an echo chamber (much like male-dominated internet discourse). I’m not saying that you should replace your male friends with female friends, or that you should stop talking to your male friends. I’m just saying that women can also provide that support in many circumstances (in my experience).
If you’re consistently having bad experiences when you talk about emotional issues with women, then it may be the way you present the issues, the group dynamics, or the specific women that you choose to open up to. To say point blank that “The worst, most ‘toxic masculinity’ environments are better than the best women encounter” is where I disagree.
I’m saying women being horrible and hurtful to men is something they need to work on. Using men as an excuse for why women can be horrible is unacceptable.
Let me ask you a question. Are all the stereotypical incels right how they treat women because some women have treated some man bad? No. So why are you saying the inverse is acceptable? That’s the only point I’m making. Women need to do a lot better with handling themselves. That’s not mens fault. Honestly this conversation is a waste of time.
For thr record. I’m Welsh and I was in Aus for a time but now I’m in NZ. Coincidently I seen two guys get dumped, one from each country. One happened just after dad died. Other happened when he went home to his nans funeral over the phone.
Rugby is integral to all three of those cultures and women are regularly involved. All blacks are everywhere and are a cultural icon on every from of adverstimement. You’re mistaking how men only that is.