Listen, you’re going to make all the excuses you can to protect your mental state. It’s fine. I used to pirate almost every game that came out and then I realized what I was doing. You might or might not one day figure it out for yourself but at this point, you aren’t engaging in good faith.
I’ll leave you with a simple video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM2R5xV3bbY think of it in the same vain as pirating a video game and you might see how artists aren’t able to continue living off of the games they make.
Except I’m not profiting off the games I pirate, and neither does anybody else these days (hasn’t since 00s).
You don’t even see the dissonance in your arguments: you’re trying to tell me how bad it is and how nobody should pirate of they can’t or don’t want to pay, but the benefactors don’t get paid either way, but I case of the latter, we’re somehow not talking about ripping someone off; it’s a sale that’s not being made either way, and assuming that the people pirating the content would’ve bought it if it wasn’t for piracy is just wrong as evident by a lot of research done on the topic.
I still haven’t seen your arguments as to how exactly it hurts people outside not closing the deal that, again, wouldn’t have been closed anyway had piracy not been an option.
it’s a sale that’s not being made either way, and assuming that the people pirating the content would’ve bought it if it wasn’t for piracy is just wrong as evident by a lot of research done on the topic.
That’s not true at all, the only decent study to suggest that was a self-reported survey done by the EU that has since been debunked.
Determined to make an objective inquiry, the researchers looked at 25 studies on the subject. Nearly 90 percent of these studies (22 out of the 25) found a statistically significant, harmful impact of piracy on sales.
Except I’m not profiting off the games I pirate, and neither does anybody else these days (hasn’t since 00s).
So first that isn’t true, people pirate games and stream/create videos of them to gain views which converts to monetization. Second, we can both agree you gain something. Does money have to be the thing you gain to see it as wrong or does enjoyment count as well? Or are we in such a monetary society that we must have monetary gain from work you didn’t make for it to be wrong?
Overall, the end of it is 1) even if you pinky promise that you wouldn’t have bought the game (the fact you would play it says otherwise because if you would enjoy it then it’s really a dollar price argument, which is covered by sales but ignoring that obvious flaw in your argument…) you 2) still end up contributing to a culture that makes it easier for people to get games for free. You can’t speak for all pirates and there are clearly many (90% of) studies showing that these folks are reducing sales numbers. 3) as we have seen just copying something can hurt something. This is why trademarks and copyrights even exist. It’s why the courts don’t stop at monetary gain. If you break copyright even for personal use, legally the copyright holder can come after you. Sometimes pirating produces an inferior copy of the game. People going to the pirated game to even judge it to see if they should buy the full game means the developers are hoping that the pirates didn’t completely ruin the binary somehow. Demos exist for a lot of games out there since Steam started Next Fest which features demos of games. Steam has a 2-week or 2-hour of game-time refund policy. The excuse of “I just want to check it out” for pirating is debunked.
So as a game developer, pay for our games. If you can’t afford it, message us. Give us insight into what is fair. If your region is unfairly priced, let us know! That stuff is automatic on Steam and sometimes really unfair. Price points can be adjusted until you can feel happy with your purchase. A lot of indie devs simply want people to enjoy their games fairly. After all, we all still have to eat.
Oh, now that’s the real culprit! That honestly explains a lot in this conversation and makes me see you less of a corporate ally for absolutely no good.
As for the “piracy le hurts” reports, I’m really not surprised that you were able to find these, mostly debunking anything stating otherwise. As if we didn’t live in the massively lobbied society where corporations and money-turners have much more leverage than anything else to manipulate the popular opinion on anything that “hurts” them, be it anything legit or simply perceived.
So first that isn’t true, people pirate games and stream/create videos of them to gain views which converts to monetization.
I don’t really know where you got that from, as any content creator that has any worthwhile numbers to make their monetization off of pirated content a problem, in fact, never mentions anything positive above piracy. Following your logic, though, are these content creators supposed to share their revenue with you if their content is based on your game?
Second, we can both agree you gain something. Does money have to be the thing you gain to see it as wrong or does enjoyment count as well? Or are we in such a monetary society that we must have monetary gain from work you didn’t make for it to be wrong?
By that logic, I can’t share games with my friends and family, because while they get some fun time, they pay nothing for the game. I’m sure that’s an absurd idea even in your books - consider every pirate my friend and family, especially when it comes to distributors and publishers I have zero respect towards. Sometimes a game is made using and promoting damaging practices, and while the game is good in its own merits, I choose not to support the developers or decision-makers monetarily.
While I’m at it, you seem to think that I just don’t for any games, like, ever, which I assure is not the case - I have a massive Steam library and some games I bought in EGS and GOG, many of which I deliberately bought as a thank you and a sign of respect only after I’ve played/beaten their pirated copies.
Demos, though, are still a minority. Starfield doesn’t have a demo, neither does Cyberpunk 2077, nor most (if not all) games that have prices so high that people even consider piracy in the first place. You strike me as a smaller developer that I may actually find during Steam Next Fest (love these, by the way, barely skip any), and you may provide demos, for which I say thank you, and it may even earn a purchase from me specifically; however, it still is an exception more than it is a rule these days.
If you have any games on Steam, I’ll be happy to check 'em out, either during a Steam Next Fest or otherwise. Most likely, you’re not charging an absurd amount of money on a bunch of lies and predatory practices, and if that’s the case, I won’t think twice about paying for a digital revocable ticket that I can only access via a single gateway (being Steam), but you won’t suddenly find yourself with less money if I simply choose to ignore your game, and you certainly won’t start losing money from your bank account if I download multiple copies for free or even make multiple copies of a legally purchased one.
But if you’re Bethesda, telling me that I can do impressive rounds of exploring in your game for dozens or hundreds of hours, or even months, or even years, but I have to pay at least $60 to enjoy the game… only to find out that this massive selling piece was a lie and once I’ve seen one POI, I’ve basically seen every POI of that type, down to enemy, object, and loot placement, yet you’re still going to sell me DLC(s) and expect the community to patch the game for free, then sorry (not sorry), I’m not going to spend any money on your product and make you think that treating your customers like that is okay in any capacity. Is it possible that I enjoy the game despite such flaws? Yes, but it doesn’t mean it’s worth the money for me, not now, not later, because it’s a predatory marketing strategy built on deceiving your buyers, and if you believe that pirating games hurts the companies that are supposed to receive the money, then I’m happy to pirate their games thousands of times to punish them for being absolute dickheads.
The reports and courts supporting those with the big wallets in this regard is identical to how climate change is still a prevalent problem that’s being put on shoulders of people like you and me, while oil and gas and tech and other industries get subsidies, leverage, and bail-outs from the governments.
Oh, now that’s the real culprit! That honestly explains a lot in this conversation and makes me see you less of a corporate ally for absolutely no good.
I don’t really see anyone defending corporations for no reason. Everyone defends their own way of life or potential way of life.
As for the “piracy le hurts” reports, I’m really not surprised that you were able to find these, mostly debunking anything stating otherwise. As if we didn’t live in the massively lobbied society where corporations and money-turners have much more leverage than anything else to manipulate the popular opinion on anything that “hurts” them, be it anything legit or simply perceived.
I understand your point but that’s kind of a weak, non-factual way of debunking them which what I linked goes into details and facts.
I don’t really know where you got that from, as any content creator that has any worthwhile numbers to make their monetization off of pirated content a problem, in fact, never mentions anything positive above piracy. Following your logic, though, are these content creators supposed to share their revenue with you if their content is based on your game?
I’ve seen it with a few streamers, it’s uncommon but it happens. Now we are also seeing the rise of paid pirating platforms which are clearly making money off of others’ work as well.
By that logic, I can’t share games with my friends and family, because while they get some fun time, they pay nothing for the game. I’m sure that’s an absurd idea even in your books - consider every pirate my friend and family, especially when it comes to distributors and publishers I have zero respect towards. Sometimes a game is made using and promoting damaging practices, and while the game is good in its own merits, I choose not to support the developers or decision-makers monetarily.
Yeah, that’s absurd but the point is that clearly there is a line there and it’s not yours to draw. It’s the copyright holders. Some people offer Steam family sharing, being there physically or sharing a Steam account requires 1 copy of the game and can only be played by one device at a given time. That’s the line developers draw and it’s on us to determine how we want to share our artwork. I think that’s pretty fair. If I make something, I can determine how I share it, it’s not up to anyone else to take my creation from me, even if that means I don’t lose the original copy.
While I’m at it, you seem to think that I just don’t for any games, like, ever, which I assure is not the case - I have a massive Steam library and some games I bought in EGS and GOG, many of which I deliberately bought as a thank you and a sign of respect only after I’ve played/beaten their pirated copies.
To be honest, I’ve met a lot of pirates who don’t buy a single thing. There are certainly lots of pirates who do not buy anything for whatever reason.
Demos, though, are still a minority. Starfield doesn’t have a demo, neither does Cyberpunk 2077, nor most (if not all) games that have prices so high that people even consider piracy in the first place. You strike me as a smaller developer that I may actually find during Steam Next Fest (love these, by the way, barely skip any), and you may provide demos, for which I say thank you, and it may even earn a purchase from me specifically; however, it still is an exception more than it is a rule these days.
Price is relative. I’d also think that demos aren’t a minority anymore by count but by AAA release, you don’t see many demos because they don’t need a demo. Most people will watch the marketing or gameplay videos and decide from coverage. The smaller indie developers (yes, like myself, I tried AAA for a while and felt like a cog, go figure) need demos to prove their game is worthy of a purchase and thus they feel to me that they’ve become more common. Although most multiplayer games can’t really have demos.
If you have any games on Steam, I’ll be happy to check 'em out, either during a Steam Next Fest or otherwise. Most likely, you’re not charging an absurd amount of money on a bunch of lies and predatory practices, and if that’s the case, I won’t think twice about paying for a digital revocable ticket that I can only access via a single gateway (being Steam), but you won’t suddenly find yourself with less money if I simply choose to ignore your game, and you certainly won’t start losing money from your bank account if I download multiple copies for free or even make multiple copies of a legally purchased one.
https://www.underflowstudios.com/games These are the games I’ve worked on. The Away Team: Lost Exodus is the one that I’ve made within my own studio. It’s likely to be so small to not even have a pirated version. You can buy it on Steam or Itch, DRM-free and with the majority of the code for the missions, characters, and textures in loose files to allow for modification. It’s completely DRM-free and in theory, you can buy it on Itch, and get a Steam key. Both versions will provide you with a game that’s just raw files. I choose to draw my line around consumers having a lot of freedom but I also respect those who don’t.
But if you’re Bethesda, telling me that I can do impressive rounds of exploring in your game for dozens or hundreds of hours, or even months, or even years, but I have to pay at least $60 to enjoy the game… only to find out that this massive selling piece was a lie and once I’ve seen one POI, I’ve basically seen every POI of that type, down to enemy, object, and loot placement, yet you’re still going to sell me DLC(s) and expect the community to patch the game for free, then sorry (not sorry), I’m not going to spend any money on your product and make you think that treating your customers like that is okay in any capacity. Is it possible that I enjoy the game despite such flaws? Yes, but it doesn’t mean it’s worth the money for me, not now, not later, because it’s a predatory marketing strategy built on deceiving your buyers, and if you believe that pirating games hurts the companies that are supposed to receive the money, then I’m happy to pirate their games thousands of times to punish them for being absolute dickheads.
I mean at that point why play it though? I figured you’d just see the gameplay videos and move on. Maybe you want to go in entirely blank? Honestly, and controversially I feel the same about a recent purchase I made, Red Dead Redemption 2. I played 26 hours and feels like I barely played 2 hours worth of enjoyable content for myself. That said, my friend’s dog did the mo-cap for the dogs in the game and it’s nice to see.
The reports and courts supporting those with the big wallets in this regard is identical to how climate change is still a prevalent problem that’s being put on shoulders of people like you and me, while oil and gas and tech and other industries get subsidies, leverage, and bail-outs from the governments.
I can’t disagree. You should always look at these reports and rulings yourself and form your own opinions.
We’re getting really lengthy here, and while that was fun while it lasted, we’re clearly both set in our ways, so I’ll answer to only a few topics that don’t simply revolve our beliefs. I know we’re just going to back and forth, ultimately saying “I’m right, you’re wrong” anyway.
I mean at that point why play it though? I figured you’d just see the gameplay videos and move on. Maybe you want to go in entirely blank? Honestly, and controversially I feel the same about a recent purchase I made, Red Dead Redemption 2. I played 26 hours and feels like I barely played 2 hours worth of enjoyable content for myself. That said, my friend’s dog did the mo-cap for the dogs in the game and it’s nice to see.
You’ve proven my point by saying that despite having spent 26 hours playing the game, barely 2 of them were worth it, and no Steam refund is going to listen to your definition of the amount of hours that count for an actual refund. You had no demo to try, and no amount of gameplay videos is going to answer the questions like “How would I play the game?” and “How would I enjoy that?”; to a certain extent, demos don’t either, because they’re not a complete experience and complete experiences count, but they’ll definitely give you a much better feeling of whether you should spend your money on the game.
That’s one reason to pirate a AAA game: you know you might like it, but you don’t want to become a metric on another chart for the sharks to pat each other on the back and say “See? We did it! We were right! They bought the game!”, even if for a 0.001% of the original price.
Kudos for casting your dog there, though. Good boy/girl.
I’ve seen it with a few streamers, it’s uncommon but it happens. Now we are also seeing the rise of paid pirating platforms which are clearly making money off of others’ work as well.
Now, we all generally denounce people making money off any sort of pirated content, be it cinema, books, games, or anything else. It’s about a lot of things, really, but none of them is profit - certainly not these days.
Yeah, that’s absurd but the point is that clearly there is a line there and it’s not yours to draw. It’s the copyright holders. Some people offer Steam family sharing, being there physically or sharing a Steam account requires 1 copy of the game and can only be played by one device at a given time. That’s the line developers draw and it’s on us to determine how we want to share our artwork. I think that’s pretty fair. If I make something, I can determine how I share it, it’s not up to anyone else to take my creation from me, even if that means I don’t lose the original copy.
I buy a book you wrote. Would you insist that I don’t share that book with anyone else and instead tell them to go get their own copy? You’ll most likely say ‘no’ once again, that’s something we both agree on, and a game is no different. Nobody is taking your book away from you, it still is yours in every regard, but you don’t get to control whether people can lend it. It’s sharing, i.e. caring, and sharing often leads to increased sales and exposure through various channels.
You even said it yourself that “there is a line there and it’s not yours to draw”, yet in the same paragraph you say “If I make something, I can determine how I share it, it’s not up to anyone else to take my creation from me, even if that means I don’t lose the original copy.”
Make what you will of it, but you stumbling like that over there clearly shows how neither approach is universally correct and simple, especially given the amount of people and their individual circumstances involved in each case of sharing, piracy, or buying a single copy exclusively.
Listen, you’re going to make all the excuses you can to protect your mental state. It’s fine. I used to pirate almost every game that came out and then I realized what I was doing. You might or might not one day figure it out for yourself but at this point, you aren’t engaging in good faith.
I’ll leave you with a simple video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM2R5xV3bbY think of it in the same vain as pirating a video game and you might see how artists aren’t able to continue living off of the games they make.
Except I’m not profiting off the games I pirate, and neither does anybody else these days (hasn’t since 00s).
You don’t even see the dissonance in your arguments: you’re trying to tell me how bad it is and how nobody should pirate of they can’t or don’t want to pay, but the benefactors don’t get paid either way, but I case of the latter, we’re somehow not talking about ripping someone off; it’s a sale that’s not being made either way, and assuming that the people pirating the content would’ve bought it if it wasn’t for piracy is just wrong as evident by a lot of research done on the topic.
I still haven’t seen your arguments as to how exactly it hurts people outside not closing the deal that, again, wouldn’t have been closed anyway had piracy not been an option.
That’s not true at all, the only decent study to suggest that was a self-reported survey done by the EU that has since been debunked.
https://corsearch.com/content-library/blog/does-piracy-impact-sales-a-look-at-the-data/
So first that isn’t true, people pirate games and stream/create videos of them to gain views which converts to monetization. Second, we can both agree you gain something. Does money have to be the thing you gain to see it as wrong or does enjoyment count as well? Or are we in such a monetary society that we must have monetary gain from work you didn’t make for it to be wrong?
Overall, the end of it is 1) even if you pinky promise that you wouldn’t have bought the game (the fact you would play it says otherwise because if you would enjoy it then it’s really a dollar price argument, which is covered by sales but ignoring that obvious flaw in your argument…) you 2) still end up contributing to a culture that makes it easier for people to get games for free. You can’t speak for all pirates and there are clearly many (90% of) studies showing that these folks are reducing sales numbers. 3) as we have seen just copying something can hurt something. This is why trademarks and copyrights even exist. It’s why the courts don’t stop at monetary gain. If you break copyright even for personal use, legally the copyright holder can come after you. Sometimes pirating produces an inferior copy of the game. People going to the pirated game to even judge it to see if they should buy the full game means the developers are hoping that the pirates didn’t completely ruin the binary somehow. Demos exist for a lot of games out there since Steam started Next Fest which features demos of games. Steam has a 2-week or 2-hour of game-time refund policy. The excuse of “I just want to check it out” for pirating is debunked.
So as a game developer, pay for our games. If you can’t afford it, message us. Give us insight into what is fair. If your region is unfairly priced, let us know! That stuff is automatic on Steam and sometimes really unfair. Price points can be adjusted until you can feel happy with your purchase. A lot of indie devs simply want people to enjoy their games fairly. After all, we all still have to eat.
Oh, now that’s the real culprit! That honestly explains a lot in this conversation and makes me see you less of a corporate ally for absolutely no good.
As for the “piracy le hurts” reports, I’m really not surprised that you were able to find these, mostly debunking anything stating otherwise. As if we didn’t live in the massively lobbied society where corporations and money-turners have much more leverage than anything else to manipulate the popular opinion on anything that “hurts” them, be it anything legit or simply perceived.
I don’t really know where you got that from, as any content creator that has any worthwhile numbers to make their monetization off of pirated content a problem, in fact, never mentions anything positive above piracy. Following your logic, though, are these content creators supposed to share their revenue with you if their content is based on your game?
By that logic, I can’t share games with my friends and family, because while they get some fun time, they pay nothing for the game. I’m sure that’s an absurd idea even in your books - consider every pirate my friend and family, especially when it comes to distributors and publishers I have zero respect towards. Sometimes a game is made using and promoting damaging practices, and while the game is good in its own merits, I choose not to support the developers or decision-makers monetarily.
While I’m at it, you seem to think that I just don’t for any games, like, ever, which I assure is not the case - I have a massive Steam library and some games I bought in EGS and GOG, many of which I deliberately bought as a thank you and a sign of respect only after I’ve played/beaten their pirated copies.
Demos, though, are still a minority. Starfield doesn’t have a demo, neither does Cyberpunk 2077, nor most (if not all) games that have prices so high that people even consider piracy in the first place. You strike me as a smaller developer that I may actually find during Steam Next Fest (love these, by the way, barely skip any), and you may provide demos, for which I say thank you, and it may even earn a purchase from me specifically; however, it still is an exception more than it is a rule these days.
If you have any games on Steam, I’ll be happy to check 'em out, either during a Steam Next Fest or otherwise. Most likely, you’re not charging an absurd amount of money on a bunch of lies and predatory practices, and if that’s the case, I won’t think twice about paying for a digital revocable ticket that I can only access via a single gateway (being Steam), but you won’t suddenly find yourself with less money if I simply choose to ignore your game, and you certainly won’t start losing money from your bank account if I download multiple copies for free or even make multiple copies of a legally purchased one.
But if you’re Bethesda, telling me that I can do impressive rounds of exploring in your game for dozens or hundreds of hours, or even months, or even years, but I have to pay at least $60 to enjoy the game… only to find out that this massive selling piece was a lie and once I’ve seen one POI, I’ve basically seen every POI of that type, down to enemy, object, and loot placement, yet you’re still going to sell me DLC(s) and expect the community to patch the game for free, then sorry (not sorry), I’m not going to spend any money on your product and make you think that treating your customers like that is okay in any capacity. Is it possible that I enjoy the game despite such flaws? Yes, but it doesn’t mean it’s worth the money for me, not now, not later, because it’s a predatory marketing strategy built on deceiving your buyers, and if you believe that pirating games hurts the companies that are supposed to receive the money, then I’m happy to pirate their games thousands of times to punish them for being absolute dickheads.
The reports and courts supporting those with the big wallets in this regard is identical to how climate change is still a prevalent problem that’s being put on shoulders of people like you and me, while oil and gas and tech and other industries get subsidies, leverage, and bail-outs from the governments.
I don’t really see anyone defending corporations for no reason. Everyone defends their own way of life or potential way of life.
I understand your point but that’s kind of a weak, non-factual way of debunking them which what I linked goes into details and facts.
I’ve seen it with a few streamers, it’s uncommon but it happens. Now we are also seeing the rise of paid pirating platforms which are clearly making money off of others’ work as well.
Yeah, that’s absurd but the point is that clearly there is a line there and it’s not yours to draw. It’s the copyright holders. Some people offer Steam family sharing, being there physically or sharing a Steam account requires 1 copy of the game and can only be played by one device at a given time. That’s the line developers draw and it’s on us to determine how we want to share our artwork. I think that’s pretty fair. If I make something, I can determine how I share it, it’s not up to anyone else to take my creation from me, even if that means I don’t lose the original copy.
To be honest, I’ve met a lot of pirates who don’t buy a single thing. There are certainly lots of pirates who do not buy anything for whatever reason.
Price is relative. I’d also think that demos aren’t a minority anymore by count but by AAA release, you don’t see many demos because they don’t need a demo. Most people will watch the marketing or gameplay videos and decide from coverage. The smaller indie developers (yes, like myself, I tried AAA for a while and felt like a cog, go figure) need demos to prove their game is worthy of a purchase and thus they feel to me that they’ve become more common. Although most multiplayer games can’t really have demos.
https://www.underflowstudios.com/games These are the games I’ve worked on. The Away Team: Lost Exodus is the one that I’ve made within my own studio. It’s likely to be so small to not even have a pirated version. You can buy it on Steam or Itch, DRM-free and with the majority of the code for the missions, characters, and textures in loose files to allow for modification. It’s completely DRM-free and in theory, you can buy it on Itch, and get a Steam key. Both versions will provide you with a game that’s just raw files. I choose to draw my line around consumers having a lot of freedom but I also respect those who don’t.
I mean at that point why play it though? I figured you’d just see the gameplay videos and move on. Maybe you want to go in entirely blank? Honestly, and controversially I feel the same about a recent purchase I made, Red Dead Redemption 2. I played 26 hours and feels like I barely played 2 hours worth of enjoyable content for myself. That said, my friend’s dog did the mo-cap for the dogs in the game and it’s nice to see.
I can’t disagree. You should always look at these reports and rulings yourself and form your own opinions.
We’re getting really lengthy here, and while that was fun while it lasted, we’re clearly both set in our ways, so I’ll answer to only a few topics that don’t simply revolve our beliefs. I know we’re just going to back and forth, ultimately saying “I’m right, you’re wrong” anyway.
You’ve proven my point by saying that despite having spent 26 hours playing the game, barely 2 of them were worth it, and no Steam refund is going to listen to your definition of the amount of hours that count for an actual refund. You had no demo to try, and no amount of gameplay videos is going to answer the questions like “How would I play the game?” and “How would I enjoy that?”; to a certain extent, demos don’t either, because they’re not a complete experience and complete experiences count, but they’ll definitely give you a much better feeling of whether you should spend your money on the game.
That’s one reason to pirate a AAA game: you know you might like it, but you don’t want to become a metric on another chart for the sharks to pat each other on the back and say “See? We did it! We were right! They bought the game!”, even if for a 0.001% of the original price.
Kudos for casting your dog there, though. Good boy/girl.
Now, we all generally denounce people making money off any sort of pirated content, be it cinema, books, games, or anything else. It’s about a lot of things, really, but none of them is profit - certainly not these days.
I buy a book you wrote. Would you insist that I don’t share that book with anyone else and instead tell them to go get their own copy? You’ll most likely say ‘no’ once again, that’s something we both agree on, and a game is no different. Nobody is taking your book away from you, it still is yours in every regard, but you don’t get to control whether people can lend it. It’s sharing, i.e. caring, and sharing often leads to increased sales and exposure through various channels.
You even said it yourself that “there is a line there and it’s not yours to draw”, yet in the same paragraph you say “If I make something, I can determine how I share it, it’s not up to anyone else to take my creation from me, even if that means I don’t lose the original copy.”
Make what you will of it, but you stumbling like that over there clearly shows how neither approach is universally correct and simple, especially given the amount of people and their individual circumstances involved in each case of sharing, piracy, or buying a single copy exclusively.