Sure you can bring another battery pack with you and charge your device from it, but at some point your internal battery will be degraded enough that it essentially needs to be plugged in to function, which is not feasible.
Being able to easily replace the thing in the device that wears out fastest is a good thing.
Granted I expect if this does go through, that mfg will make the battery hard to replace by other means (ie drm locks) making sure they can nickel and dime the consumer all the way.
The maximum a phone will ever last is probably ~10 years, because that’s about how often 2g, 3g, lasted. By then it certainly isn’t getting any software updates and on the Android side, security updates won’t even last 5.
So the maximum lifespan of a phone is, reasonably, 5 years. That’s taking into account software updates, and other wear and tear.
During that time, if you use and abuse the battery, you might go through 2 batteries, which you can have serviced.
So I’d say it’s more akin to a timing chain that’s a pain in the ass to replace. Most car owners would not try to replace a timing belt, much less a timing chain.
I’d say that it’s tough to make a definitive statement on the maximum lifespan of phones.
For one, Fairphone is selling phones with 5 year warranties, so I don’t think there’s any argument that a phone with a replaceable battery and continuous updates shouldn’t last at least 5 years.
With regard to cellular technologies, I think it’s hard to compare the technologies of the 2000’s with the technologies of the 2010’s and 2020’s. Smartphones radically changed the purpose of cell networks, which meant there was a rapid shift in technologies in the 2000’s.
That said, 2G networks like GSM and GPRS are still around and are only set to be shut off in some countries around 2025. GSM is from 1991, and GPRS was standardized in 2000, but the protocol existed as early as 1993. That’s 20-35 years that you could use your old StarTac or RAZR, though, those are not smartphones.
3G didn’t last as long as 2G did, as it was more of an overclocked 2G developed as a bandaid to keep up with smartphones, as opposed to the packet-switched network that we have now with 4G and 5G.
Looking at the most recent technologies, LTE and Evolved Packet Core are still the backbone of our cellular networks, new wireless standards like 5G NR just piggy-back off of existing 4G networks. LTE has been commercially available since 2010, so again, that’s over 13 years of radio/network compatiblility, with likely another decade to go.
Considering how much smartphones have matured in the last 10 years, and how the pace of releases have slowed down, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for the average smartphone to last 10 years like laptops do. It just requires better compatibility and maintenance on the software front, which Google has already been improving on for the past 5 years.
Over here 3G got completely shut down and frequencies reused for 5G. Most bandwidth seems to be allocated to 4G, 2G is, as far as I can tell, bound to stay: It’s legally mandated to be available for emergency calls and is plenty for dumb phones.
You can certainly make the argument that phones (and computers) are slowing down. It used to be a revolution every year or two, now it’s very incremental.
I would not say though that you can effectively use a 10 year old phone. There are some old networks out there, but major networks shut down 3g.
You might have seen Joanna Stern’s attempt to use an iPhone 3G on YouTube last year (if not watch it for some amusement). Even if the battery on that device were fine, the device was really pretty unusable.
Also: even if the battery were easily replaceable, replacements will only be easy to find for the most popular older phones.
Yeah, I’m not saying that people should be using a Nexus 5 (a 4g phone) in 2023. Smartphones have matured a lot since 2013 though, and I think phones coming out now will still be perfectly usable in 2033, as long as replacement parts are available and they are updated to 2033 software. There are people using x230 Thinkpads in 2023, so it’s definitely possible with laptops.
I’ll have to check out that video, it sounds pretty interesting!
Yeah, Thinkpads are still usable, though I don’t think most people would want to run an x230 today. It might be usable on Linux with XFCE. But Windows? Eh…
Either way, what’s stopping phones from lasting longer isn’t really batteries. You could take a phone in for a replacement battery every 2 years and it would still be unusable before too long because of software updates.
I do think requiring OEMs to provide security and software updates for at least 5 years would be a sensible regulation. Maybe even 10 years for devices over $1000.
I agree. I’ve has to scrap and force upgrade multiple devices over the years, solely due to the battery dying quickly. Definitely a built in obsolescence built into the industry that needs to be fixed.
Definitely a built in obsolescence built into the industry that needs to be fixed.
This is why I’m a fan of the right to repair and wish more jurisdictions would enact laws around it. If the EU ends up having stricter regulations than the rest of the world, it’s possible manufacturers will just end up having totally different models in EU vs elsewhere.
As long as they’re reasonably replaceable, I don’t see it as a big issue for longevity. I’d rather have a bigger battery (less plastic casing), wireless charging w/ magsafe, better water resistance, etc.
If the battery is toast 3 years in, I can just replace it, which I’ve done on other devices (including my last Pixel). It’s not much more inconvenient than taking a car in for an oil change. Besides, on my 18 month old phone, capacity is at 95%. These days batteries often last as long as you’ll need them.
I see the much bigger longevity issue on the software side. Many phones (especially budget ones) only get 1 major OS upgrade and very infrequent security upgrades.
You mentioned MagSafe, so I assume you use an iPhone. I have an iPhone 12 mini and the battery life is awful. I love the phone, but I cannot recommend it to power users due to the battery life (the 13 mini should be significantly better, but I cannot confirm).
I’ve owned it for a bit over 2 years and I have 80% battery health, and I need to charge it multiple times per day. The battery is small and due to the form factor / design, it heats up quickly, further degrading the battery, especially if charging >5W.
I think it’s almost only because of an increasing amount of people using phones as their main multimedia and productivity device, hence the need for larger screens.
Such a shame, because battery aside (which is supposedly better in the 13), it’s still the most enjoyable phone I’ve had in a very long time. The size is extremely convenient for me and I believe iOS works best at this display size; even the home screen on an iPhone Pro Max shows the same amount of information as my Mini and likewise for the status bar (except for the models with a “Dynamic Island”).
I wouldn’t say I use my phone for productivity, but I do just play and consume content with it when I’m board. So for me, the biggest screen I can fit and hold is the best one.
you say that but I smashed the screen on my pixel 4a a few months back, had a quick look around at what new devices I could get in it’s price range, and the 4a was still the device that met my needs best.
I literally just had my 4a’s screen replaced this week lol
New phones on the market offer no incentive to “upgrade” quite frankly. Also I don’t want to give up my aux port, I still have accessories I use with the aux cable which I couldn’t use anymore with a newer phone.
That depends, if you buy a flagship device then in 5 years it will probably still be quite usable, but the battery could already be shot.
My phone (not even a flagship model) is coming up on 4 years old and it’s still pretty fast and on the newest Android version (yay custom ROMs), but the battery now struggles to get me through a regular day, so it will probably need to be replaced soon.
I see it as a longevity thing.
Sure you can bring another battery pack with you and charge your device from it, but at some point your internal battery will be degraded enough that it essentially needs to be plugged in to function, which is not feasible.
Being able to easily replace the thing in the device that wears out fastest is a good thing.
Granted I expect if this does go through, that mfg will make the battery hard to replace by other means (ie drm locks) making sure they can nickel and dime the consumer all the way.
Yeah, it’s like buying a car without being able to change the tyres.
The maximum a phone will ever last is probably ~10 years, because that’s about how often 2g, 3g, lasted. By then it certainly isn’t getting any software updates and on the Android side, security updates won’t even last 5.
So the maximum lifespan of a phone is, reasonably, 5 years. That’s taking into account software updates, and other wear and tear.
During that time, if you use and abuse the battery, you might go through 2 batteries, which you can have serviced.
So I’d say it’s more akin to a timing chain that’s a pain in the ass to replace. Most car owners would not try to replace a timing belt, much less a timing chain.
I’d say that it’s tough to make a definitive statement on the maximum lifespan of phones.
For one, Fairphone is selling phones with 5 year warranties, so I don’t think there’s any argument that a phone with a replaceable battery and continuous updates shouldn’t last at least 5 years.
With regard to cellular technologies, I think it’s hard to compare the technologies of the 2000’s with the technologies of the 2010’s and 2020’s. Smartphones radically changed the purpose of cell networks, which meant there was a rapid shift in technologies in the 2000’s.
That said, 2G networks like GSM and GPRS are still around and are only set to be shut off in some countries around 2025. GSM is from 1991, and GPRS was standardized in 2000, but the protocol existed as early as 1993. That’s 20-35 years that you could use your old StarTac or RAZR, though, those are not smartphones.
3G didn’t last as long as 2G did, as it was more of an overclocked 2G developed as a bandaid to keep up with smartphones, as opposed to the packet-switched network that we have now with 4G and 5G.
Looking at the most recent technologies, LTE and Evolved Packet Core are still the backbone of our cellular networks, new wireless standards like 5G NR just piggy-back off of existing 4G networks. LTE has been commercially available since 2010, so again, that’s over 13 years of radio/network compatiblility, with likely another decade to go.
Considering how much smartphones have matured in the last 10 years, and how the pace of releases have slowed down, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for the average smartphone to last 10 years like laptops do. It just requires better compatibility and maintenance on the software front, which Google has already been improving on for the past 5 years.
Over here 3G got completely shut down and frequencies reused for 5G. Most bandwidth seems to be allocated to 4G, 2G is, as far as I can tell, bound to stay: It’s legally mandated to be available for emergency calls and is plenty for dumb phones.
You can certainly make the argument that phones (and computers) are slowing down. It used to be a revolution every year or two, now it’s very incremental.
I would not say though that you can effectively use a 10 year old phone. There are some old networks out there, but major networks shut down 3g.
You might have seen Joanna Stern’s attempt to use an iPhone 3G on YouTube last year (if not watch it for some amusement). Even if the battery on that device were fine, the device was really pretty unusable.
Also: even if the battery were easily replaceable, replacements will only be easy to find for the most popular older phones.
Yeah, I’m not saying that people should be using a Nexus 5 (a 4g phone) in 2023. Smartphones have matured a lot since 2013 though, and I think phones coming out now will still be perfectly usable in 2033, as long as replacement parts are available and they are updated to 2033 software. There are people using x230 Thinkpads in 2023, so it’s definitely possible with laptops.
I’ll have to check out that video, it sounds pretty interesting!
Yeah, Thinkpads are still usable, though I don’t think most people would want to run an x230 today. It might be usable on Linux with XFCE. But Windows? Eh…
Either way, what’s stopping phones from lasting longer isn’t really batteries. You could take a phone in for a replacement battery every 2 years and it would still be unusable before too long because of software updates.
I do think requiring OEMs to provide security and software updates for at least 5 years would be a sensible regulation. Maybe even 10 years for devices over $1000.
I agree. I’ve has to scrap and force upgrade multiple devices over the years, solely due to the battery dying quickly. Definitely a built in obsolescence built into the industry that needs to be fixed.
This is why I’m a fan of the right to repair and wish more jurisdictions would enact laws around it. If the EU ends up having stricter regulations than the rest of the world, it’s possible manufacturers will just end up having totally different models in EU vs elsewhere.
As long as they’re reasonably replaceable, I don’t see it as a big issue for longevity. I’d rather have a bigger battery (less plastic casing), wireless charging w/ magsafe, better water resistance, etc.
If the battery is toast 3 years in, I can just replace it, which I’ve done on other devices (including my last Pixel). It’s not much more inconvenient than taking a car in for an oil change. Besides, on my 18 month old phone, capacity is at 95%. These days batteries often last as long as you’ll need them.
I see the much bigger longevity issue on the software side. Many phones (especially budget ones) only get 1 major OS upgrade and very infrequent security upgrades.
You mentioned MagSafe, so I assume you use an iPhone. I have an iPhone 12 mini and the battery life is awful. I love the phone, but I cannot recommend it to power users due to the battery life (the 13 mini should be significantly better, but I cannot confirm).
I’ve owned it for a bit over 2 years and I have 80% battery health, and I need to charge it multiple times per day. The battery is small and due to the form factor / design, it heats up quickly, further degrading the battery, especially if charging >5W.
I suspect this plays into why small flagships are mostly a thing of the past.
I think it’s almost only because of an increasing amount of people using phones as their main multimedia and productivity device, hence the need for larger screens.
Such a shame, because battery aside (which is supposedly better in the 13), it’s still the most enjoyable phone I’ve had in a very long time. The size is extremely convenient for me and I believe iOS works best at this display size; even the home screen on an iPhone Pro Max shows the same amount of information as my Mini and likewise for the status bar (except for the models with a “Dynamic Island”).
I wouldn’t say I use my phone for productivity, but I do just play and consume content with it when I’m board. So for me, the biggest screen I can fit and hold is the best one.
The added battery life is just gravy.
In the majority of devices the device will be obsolete before the battery is degraded to the point of being unusable.
you say that but I smashed the screen on my pixel 4a a few months back, had a quick look around at what new devices I could get in it’s price range, and the 4a was still the device that met my needs best.
I literally just had my 4a’s screen replaced this week lol
New phones on the market offer no incentive to “upgrade” quite frankly. Also I don’t want to give up my aux port, I still have accessories I use with the aux cable which I couldn’t use anymore with a newer phone.
That depends, if you buy a flagship device then in 5 years it will probably still be quite usable, but the battery could already be shot.
My phone (not even a flagship model) is coming up on 4 years old and it’s still pretty fast and on the newest Android version (yay custom ROMs), but the battery now struggles to get me through a regular day, so it will probably need to be replaced soon.